Tips to get ED batteries to possibly last 15 to 20 years - Smart Car Forums
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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 12:56 PM Thread Starter
 
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Tips to get ED batteries to possibly last 15 to 20 years

The comments of an electrical engineer would be useful here (hint, hint), but an interesting article states if properly used, our high voltage batteries could last 15 to 20 years:
Expert: What You Know About Lithium Batteries Is Wrong, Can Last Up To 20 Years | Inside EVs
The article is from 2013, which would correlate well with the battery technology inherent with 2013 batteries that many of us have. Mikael Cugnet, a battery expert with the French Atomic Energy Commission offers these tips to extend battery life:
1) avoid high heat (e.g., leaving the car in the summer sun for extended periods). That's good news for those of you in Canada! Those in warmer climates may want to consider a car cover to shade the car when parked in the Sun for long periods.
2) Too many fast charges can damage the ability of a lithium battery to hold a charge over time. Thus, if you have the time, use your 110V charger overnight.
3) Lithium packs that are only charged to 50% of capacity will last the longest. Ideally a charge should stay between 20% and 80% of total capacity. Thus, unless you plan on doing a long drive the next day, don't charge it to full capacity.
4) An onboard active cooling system, such as the ED has, is a big assist to battery life. Thus make sure your cooling system is functional.

I suspect you could actually get more years out of your battery, but at a reduced capacity. I suspect (again, the advice of an electrical engineer would be useful) that if the battery drops below 80% original capacity that you can still drive your ED just fine. Everything should still work; you just can't drive it as far. MB of course guarantees 80% of more of original capacity out to ten years under BAP, but I suspect if you drop below 80% after ten years that you can keep driving the car with reduced range. Thus, if you are like me and just use it for short trips around town, you could conceivably get 30 years of use or more. No need to purchase expensive replacement batteries.
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Last edited by hurricanes; 03-07-2017 at 01:14 PM. Reason: typo
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 01:36 PM
 
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How many here charge at home on just the level 1 charger over night?


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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
 
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A followup 2013 article from the American Chemical Society website with further helpful comments:
https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/p...-vehicles.html
Noteworthy quotes: "A temperature above 86 degrees F affects the battery pack performance instantly and even permanently if it lasts many months like in Middle East countries." Also, "a fully-charged battery is more vulnerable to losing power at temperatures above 86 degrees F" This could be an issue for those of us in warmer climates.

And there is this quote from BU-1003: Electric Vehicle (EV) ? Battery University (last updated in 2016)
"EV owners want ultra-fast charging and technologies are available but these should be used sparingly as fast charging stresses the battery. If at all possible, do not exceed a charge rate of 1C. (See BU-402: What is C-rate?) Avoid full charges that take less than 90 minutes. Ultra-fast charging is ideal for EV drivers on the run and this is fine for occasional use. Some EVs keep a record of stressful battery events and this data could be used to nullify a warranty claim. (See BU-401a: Fast and Ultrafast Chargers)"
and this quote "Heat reduces the life, and cold lowers the performance temporarily"
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 03:50 PM Thread Starter
 
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And here is a quote from Tesla, also in 2013 https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-life...n-of-some-sort
"2) battery degradation is non-linear over time; meaning it starts very very slow, but after 4-5 years, it gets faster.
3) after the first 5 years, degradation may be as low as 5%. But by the 8th year, they expect about 30% degradation"

Presumably these degradation rates are dependent on temperature, quick charging, overcharging and battery cooling. But bear in mind that ICE also degrade over time, so ICE owners shouldn't get too smug.

Tesla apparently also sets the default daily charge limit to 90% and only recommends charging to 100% when you're planning a long trip
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 03:57 PM
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Whatever, smart NOT a Tesla...
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 04:13 PM
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It will be interesting to see what fails first on the ED, SAM, motor controller, motor, battery pack. Everyone seems to focus on the battery pack, what is the cost to replace the motor controller?
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-07-2017, 05:23 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emailchrishall View Post
How many here charge at home on just the level 1 charger over night?
I use just the level 1 charger (I was too cheap to spend up to $1000 to install a 220V line and to buy a level 2 charger). Works fine for me, but many folks need to get it charged and in a hurry. The point being that quick charging is apparently resulting in a decrease in battery life, so it is important to weigh the pros and cons of quick charging.

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Originally Posted by MB DNA View Post
Whatever, smart NOT a Tesla...
Such an insightful comment. One point of this thread is that charging to 100% may shorten battery life, and the fact that Tesla apparently sets a recharge limit of 90% provides more evidence to that effect.

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Originally Posted by Huronlad View Post
It will be interesting to see what fails first on the ED, SAM, motor controller, motor, battery pack. Everyone seems to focus on the battery pack, what is the cost to replace the motor controller?
Totally agree; not only the items you mention but everything from shocks, windshield wipers, radio, tires, etc., etc., will wear out over time. Most of these items can either be replaced by regular mechanics (not the expensive MB) or repaired (perhaps even the motor could be repaired by a regular electrical shop). Some of the items like the motor controller can not, although it is likely their cost is an order of magnitude less than the battery.

Some good comments from everyone. The point of the thread is that many of us worry about battery longevity and the large cost of replacement or repair once BAP runs out, and there are apparently some simple acts we can take to lengthen battery lifetime. In addition, this has relevance to BAP discussions elsewhere on the forum.
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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hurricanes View Post
The article is from 2013, which would correlate well with the battery technology inherent with 2013 batteries that many of us have. Mikael Cugnet, a battery expert with the French Atomic Energy Commission offers these tips to extend battery life:
1) avoid high heat (e.g., leaving the car in the summer sun for extended periods). That's good news for those of you in Canada! Those in warmer climates may want to consider a car cover to shade the car when parked in the Sun for long periods.
2) Too many fast charges can damage the ability of a lithium battery to hold a charge over time. Thus, if you have the time, use your 110V charger overnight.
3) Lithium packs that are only charged to 50% of capacity will last the longest. Ideally a charge should stay between 20% and 80% of total capacity. Thus, unless you plan on doing a long drive the next day, don't charge it to full capacity.
4) An onboard active cooling system, such as the ED has, is a big assist to battery life. Thus make sure your cooling system is functional.
I am an electrical engineer and I mostly agree with these suggestions. My only small quibble is with #2 : The charge voltage is not really the issue. The issue is with the charge rate (current). Fast charging reduces the life of the battery, mostly due to internal heating. Active cooling of the battery (like the model 451 ED has) minimizes this problem, but fast charging is not a good idea unless you need to. Using the 110V (L1) charger limits the current to 12A but there are other ways to do that. One is to use the multi-function control in the car to set a charge current to something other than "MAX". Another is to use the button on the so-called "charge cable" to limit the current. I personally use the "Charge and Depart" feature on the multi-function control in the car. This feature reduces the charge current to the minimum needed to have the car fully charged at the time of day set by the user. This feature also allows the cabin to be pre-conditioned (heated or cooled to 68 deg F) at the set departure time, minimizing the power drain on the HV battery.

One of the reasons I selected the ED instead of other more popular EV's like the Leaf is the fact that the motor and battery are actively cooled. Heat reduces battery life significantly. Example: Nissan has had issues with Leaf batteries failing quickly in warm climates like Phoenix. I think Nissan is on the 3rd or 4th generation of air-cooled batteries for the Leaf. Even so, I am skeptical enough about longevity of the ED battery to have leased the battery in my ED (Battery Assurance Plus). 20 years seems like a long time for a Lithium-Ion battery. None of my phones have lasted even 5 years. In any case, the battery capacity should gradually taper off over time and not suddenly fail. Even if the capacity is below the 80% limit that is considered a battery failure, one can still drive it. Case in point: I had a salesperson at a local used car dealership specializing in EV's tell me that none of the Leaf batteries have failed. When I inquired about what he meant, it was clear that he didn't consider a massive reduction of capacity (like 50%) to be a failure because one can still drive the car. I was amused by this.
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 05:04 PM
 
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My 2013 ED is currently getting a replacement battery under warranty. I will be interested to see what my range is like with the new unit. I'm curious if 4 years of battery advancements will result in a little more than the 70 mile range. I can't find anyone else that has had to have a battery replaced so I have no clue what to expect.

I'm also going to start babying my battery a little more. @svaraman , Do you think over night charging at the lower current setting is optimal or should we revert to using the level 1 EVSE? I feel like the level 2 charger is more efficient and thus actually saves a little power. Am I wrong? Like you said, it seems like the over all best choice considering power consumption and battery life is to do the level 2 but at the reduced rate.


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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by emailchrishall View Post
My 2013 ED is currently getting a replacement battery under warranty. I will be interested to see what my range is like with the new unit. I'm curious if 4 years of battery advancements will result in a little more than the 70 mile range. I can't find anyone else that has had to have a battery replaced so I have no clue what to expect.
Wow, that's really bad. I'd love to hear more details about your experience. The estimated range on my ED (on the display) is down to 45 miles. I'm not sure if this is due to the colder weather we've been having or the battery is beginning to serious degrade. The firmware in the console was upgraded in late December 2016. That could be why the reported range is so low.

In any case, I would not expect any change in the battery capacity, but the new battery may be more reliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emailchrishall View Post
I'm also going to start babying my battery a little more. @svaraman , Do you think over night charging at the lower current setting is optimal or should we revert to using the level 1 EVSE? I feel like the level 2 charger is more efficient and thus actually saves a little power. Am I wrong? Like you said, it seems like the over all best choice considering power consumption and battery life is to do the level 2 but at the reduced rate.
Personally, I use the "Charge and Depart" feature almost exclusively. This limits the charge current to the minimum needed to have the car fully charged at the time of day you specify. If you're really concerned about it, you can set a lower maximum charge current using the multi-function controller in the car. For example, setting it to 8A will extend the charge time while allowing you to use the L2 charger. The L2 charger is slightly more efficient than the L1 charger.
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