I think that I may have found the YouTube version of Critical Thinker. And I've been laying out salvos of info and his only response is: The G-forces will cause severe injury.
I've now stopped posting those 500 character answers and just PMed him a 2-3 page essay on the smart and its safety.
And his answer is: The G-forces will cause severe injury, the smart is unsafe, why not just buy a Prius since you already said that it's better with gas*.
Or just buy the Versa Subcompact**.
* He obviously didn't read all of my information...
**The Versa is NOT a subcompact...
Just look at the comments, I'll post my essays too.
Here's my answer with true facts and research, not just opinions.
- To start off the smart has some of the lowest insurance costs in all of the USA.
- Traction is very good in the snow (especially with snow tires.)
- It got some of the highest crash test ratings of all subcompacts
- It is owned by Daimler and Mercedes
- Some drivers with a feather of a foot can reach around 50mpg
- EPA Estimated 33/41 mpg
- Parks anywhere
- Great when gas prices are a killer
- Speed limited to 90mph
- 0-60 in about 12.8 seconds. The fastest recorded was by Motorweek at 12.2 seconds.
- USB 2.0 Upgrade makes the transmission shift faster and smoother.
- Tridion Safety Cell
- Exchangeable body panels that cost not even a fraction of the cost of traditional body parts
- ESP - Uses Bosch Stability Control systems to help keep you from losing control of your smart.
- Hill Start Assist - so you don't fly back when starting up a hill
- Roomy - It fits some of the biggest people (Shaq bought one)
- Luxury - cabrio model - pano roof - A/C - iPod compatible stereo with optional subs - on 08 and early 09 models had Automatic headlights and automatic wipers
- Halogen Headlights provide the path through the night
- Rear mounted engine - helps to provide better traction to the road. It also eliminates the need for the extra bulky parts required for a front engine. Also without a front engine, the front end of the vehicle could be as space saving as possible
- Side airbags - an add on to the already rigid NASCAR quality safety cell
- Turning radius of 27ft
- Uses synthetic oil
- Ultra Low Emission Vehicle (ULEV)
- low MSRP sticker price
- custom made for you or pick up an orphan
There are 4 US trims available, all current model 451 smart fortwo
The pure - $11,990 all the essentials, nothing else, not even AC
The passion coupe - $13,990 the smart in its luxury form, options go on from a premium sound system with tweeters, mid-range, and a subwoofer to the comfort package with leather seating, seat heating, power steering, and fog lamps, panorama roof designed by Bayer Material Sciences is included.
The passion cabriolet - $16,990 this smart comes with everything that the passion coupe can have but with a cabriolet roof. One touch and the roof will open like a sun roof. Another touch and itll move into a full convertible position. This can be done at any speed. To add on, you could remove the upper Tridion Cell bars to full the effect.
The BRABUS coupe and cabriolet - $17,990-$20,990 BRABUS is just one of Mercedes Benzs most famous modifiers. The US versions come with an upgraded exhaust system and suspension upgrades along with the BRABUS styling and body kits.
There are more models one could obtain in the USA by the grey market These are:
The smart city coupe this is the original smart fortwo, made for Europe and is imported to the USA by G&K. These come in very limited numbers and are actually shorter than the USA model.
The smart roadster this is the fastest smart to come off the production line. These had a limited production of only 5,000 models. These were never imported to the USA and got here by other means (military, etc.). These are extremely rare to find in the states and as the numbers arent solid, theres probably less than 50 of these roadsters in the USA, making it a very rare find. They dont have an electronic limiter so theyre top speed is whatever your red line is in 6th gear. Stock red line is at 125mph.
As for safety the smart has received the highest ratings of all subcompacts. And the smart has received the IIHS highest rating of GOOD overall.
In roof crush tests the smart beat the competition by a mile because roof crush is over 9,000 pounds. It earned "GOOD" in this test as well.
'The smart brand (spelled in lowercase by the manufacturer) is a combination of Swatch, Mercedes and ART. The Swatch company had the idea for removable body panels, but is no longer involved with the smart'. The smart brand continued this idea of low cost, high quality removable body panels to this day.
And because of this, the smart was the only car to pass the IIHS' 2.5 mph bumper test. The damage caused to the vehicle would have to cost less than $500.The smart's body panel totaled around $190. All others had failed because of their poorly designed and expensive bumpers.
The smart has received the overall ratings in these categories:
Some smart owners have already gotten into a crash with their smart and have shared their amazing stories which add to the smart's credibility. That site is here: safeandsmart.com: home
There's a video that had surfaced on the internet recently about how small cars fail at safety. In the video they had tested a Yaris, a Fit, and a smart. The Yaris and the Fit's passenger compartment had buckled under the force of their heavier counterparts and the Yaris driver's head even hit the other Toyota's hood. indicating serious head injury. The results of both cars indicated serious if not fatal injury to the driver.
In the smart's test the smart crumpled to the passenger compartment, rebounded, and spun off into the corner. Results indicated high possibiliy of broken legs and a possibility of head injury. The smart still scored higher than the competition and the driver would still most likely live, and the legs would heal.
There's another video from Fifth Gear and they smash a smart into a wall at 70mph. And then they test a four door compact at the same speed. Both cars did exceedingly well at keeping their shape.
Without even considering that the smart did about the same as a car larger than it is, people stuck to the conclusion that the car is a deathtrap.
Another is that the shear force of an accident would kill you in a smart because such car with little crumple zones would mean a higher deceleration rate. The smart compensates with this by not only dissipating force through the wheels but with seatbelt tensioners that act with just enough force to not dig into your neck.
Fifth Gear described all of the smart's safety systems that reduce those forces on your body. Crash testing reveals that the seatbelts limit the force on the body and makes it feel as if the car didn't stop as rapidly. Some other conventional cars don't do that.
And about injuries? Quote on quote from that video: "The cars may have stood up to the severity of the crash surprisingly well but the humans inside, wouldn't".
So yes, the smart is just as safe as some larger cars. No it is not a deathtrap and you cannot use a 70mph crash as an excuse because the car's opponent did just as bad.
The smart plant in Hambach, France opened its doors in 1998 rolling the first city coupe off the line. But smarts roots go all the way back to around 1996 when ideas were rolling and the first smarts were on the road.
Additionally, according to Gizmag, the smart brand is the 5th "most reliable" car brand available in the USA. And this is just after only 11 years after smart opened its doors.
Here's how the smart compares to other fuel sippers:
Through long term testing, the little smart has proven to cost less in the long run than any other full petrol powered vehicle.
Here are my equations for how much I'm saving with a smart compared to a Yaris and a Prius:
smart fortwo: 41mpg after break in (EPA estimate for highway) equates to a 357mi range on one 8.7 gallon tank. At current local gas prices ($2.70 Premium) the smart gets that 357mi with only $23. Not bad, weekly lunch costs more than that.
Okay now to a Prius, estimating 48mpg (EPA estimate for highway) after break in and with an 11.9 gallon tank this equates to a range of 571mi. And with gas ($2.50 Unleaded) it would cost $30. Not bad either, for ten more bucks you could go 200 more miles.
Now to the Yaris, estimating 36mpg after break in (EPA estimate for highway) and with its 11.1 gallon tank it has a range of 399mi (one less than a smart) but it requires extra gallons to reach that and with the gas ($2.50 Unleaded) it will take $28 to fill up a Yaris.
Now lets consider buying price and later purchases (batteries):
Base models:
smart fortwo pure - (automated manual transmission) $11,990 - no A/C - no power accessories (excluding locking), no radio. side airbags included
Yaris - (manual transmission) $12,205 - CD player standard, A/C, side airbags NOT included but are "optional" (receives "POOR" for side impact safety without it)
Prius - (automatic) $22,000 - CD player standard, Eco A/C, side airbags included
Fully Loaded:
smart fortwo cabriolet (convertible) - (automated manual) $20,000 - Navigation with Bluetooth and iPod control, leather seating/heating, fog lamps, security system with immobilizer, power steering. Etc...
Yaris (2 dr coupe) - (automatic) $22,157 - iPod compatible stereo, power upgrades, style upgrades, safety upgrades, security system.
Prius - (automatic) $35,173 - eco friendly materials, navigation, remote start, solar panel cooling.
Prius battery change - every 100,000-200,000 miles/ 8 years at a price of $2,500.
Yearly costs (if driven 1,000mi a month):
Prius - $612 @ 1.7 fill ups a month @ $30 a fill up @ $2.50gal
smart - $773 @ 2.8 fill ups a month @ $23 a fill up @ 2.70gal
Yaris - $843 @ 2.51 fill ups a month @ $28 a fill up @ $2.50gal
With those $194 gas savings it'll take a Prius 94 years to offset the cost of a smart. And that does not include the 100,000-200,000mi/ 8 year battery change.
Parts cost of the smart: (these high strength body panels awarded the smart "GOOD" for bumper crush resistance tests)(this is if your insurance company does not pay, out of pocket etc.):
$190 for single body part
$1,000 for whole new body replacement (including installation)
Parts cost on "traditional" cars (Prius, Yaris, F-150):
$1,000 - $2,000+ for single part
$8,000+ for full body replacement
So overall, the smart is the cheaper car. It does offer a bit less performance and 2 less seats than other cars but the payoff is great. The combination of safety and design makes the smart a revolutionary car. And driving it does nothing but put a big smile on your face.
Maintenance is so easy a toddler could do the basics, your smartcenter would do oil changes and scheduled maintenance for a small fee of about $120 as compared to $300+ that other companies offer.
Although you can just do your own maintenance if you know how, and online manuals would show the simplest ways.
Say if your dealer screws up and you're unhappy, you could call the President of smartUSA and talk to him and not a person in an outsourced country! And he'll set any issues straight.
So if you want more bang for the buck (and more fun!) I highly recommend the smart car.
Thanks for all the info. Very helpful. Based on the info though, the Smart (yes I capitalize it, lol) isn't safe enough for a very small car. If you hit anything larger, which lets face it, is everything else on the road, and you're looking at serious injuries or death. True, you'd be worse off in any other small car most likely. But the point is, it's still and unsafe vehicle compared to others. It still received a poor side crash rating and the internal forces in your body from the more abrupt stop in a collision compared to other small cars means you're more likely to die of internal rather than external injuries. I also do not like that the Smart comes with a rather poor warranty. Only 2yrs/24k miles. That's nothing. The car is still new at 24k miles. Also, the Smart network of dealers is tiny, so should anything break under warranty, it's a long and expensive tow back to the dealership. Even if it breaks out of warranty, the Smart is so new and unknown to mechanics that you'll be forced to have a Smart dealer fix it, which means very high repair bills. I think of it like this, would I really want to risk my safety or my family's safety in a Smart? The answer is no. I'd rather pay double the price for say a Prius and have a MUCH safer vehicle that is actually cheaper on gas, based on the info you gave me. The Smart looks like loads of fun as a runabout, but I'd be too scared to drive it 70mph on the interstate with everyone looming larger than me flying by, riding my tail, and all the other crazy things drivers do. My Mom was considering a Smart for her next car, but I showed her the video on youtube of the MB C300 against the Smart and she was totally scared off of buying one. Now she's thinking the new Ford Fiesta would make a lot more sense. It's going to be somewhere between $14-$20k, is VERY safe (safer tha n Smart) has a proper back seat and trunk, and gets 36mpg estimated.
My response to that:
Quote:
As for that warranty issue. For $5 more a month you can have a 5yr/100,000mile warranty. When you purchase the car they give you the choice of the free 2yr/24,000mi warranty or you could go higher in factory warranty.
As for out of warranty repairs, the smart's parts are actually very cheap in cost and even though they're distributed through Mercedes-Benz they run on their own. For example a roof and a whole new body kit:
$1,000-$1,200 for a whole new body kit including labor, takes 3 hours.
$400 for new polycarbonate roof, including labor, takes 1 day.
As for the internal forces on your body aspect of the safety system, this is ripped directly from both smartUSA and IIHS.
Quote:
"All smart fortwos are equipped with a package of passive safety features. Full driver and passenger front airbags and side airbags for head and thorax protection come standard. The steering column will collapse in the event of a serious front-end collision.
The smart fortwo also has a sophisticated safety belt system, incorporating belt tensioners that sense motion changes to reduce slack in a few milliseconds while also triggering a belt force limiter designed to release a controlled amount of pressure on the chest before the pressure becomes too great. In addition, the seats are designed with a strong modular steel structure with integrated headrests."
"The highlight of the safety management system is the tridion safety cell. The safety cell is made from steel, half of which is high-strength material, especially in highly stressed areas. The cell is designed to keep occupants protected. The reinforced steel and the design of the car, including the wheel bases, allow the distribution of the crash energy.
When you are on the leading edge of vehicle efficiency and small vehicle design, the issue of safety is a critical element. That's why the core design philosophy of the smart fortwo is focused on something called the tridion safety cell. Much like a nut is protected by its hard outside shell, the smart fortwo's occupants are protected by a steel housing that combines longitudinal and transverse members that displace impact forces over a large area of the car. So it's not about the amount of steel, but how that material will resist an impact. That's what the tridion safety cell is all about.
The smart fortwo comes standard with four airbags (two full-sized front and two side for head and thorax protection). Other safety features such as Electronic Stability Program (esp®), Brake Assist and anti-lock brakes are also standard."
"The smart fortwo is designed with steel bumpers at the front and rear that are bolted to the safety cell´s longitudinal beams via slip tubes. They can be replaced after minor collisions at low costs. For parking lot bumps, an impact of less than 2 miles an hour won't affect the crash box at all. Up to about 10 miles per hour, the slip tubes move to keep impact away from the tridion safety cell. Over 10 miles an hour, the tridion safety cell transmits impact over its entire surface to dissipate energy and protect its occupants (assuming a perpendicular impact involving the entire front width). At the rear of the car, the crash box is also built of steel, which crumples much like the front slip tubes do. At an impact exceeding the severity threshold, the fuel supply to the engine is stopped and the central locking system is automatically unlocked."
"You might have noticed that the smart fortwo has a pretty short wheelbase, but you probably haven't thought of that as a safety feature. If you suffer a side impact in your smart fortwo, chances are that the car hitting you will hit the wheels and tires of your car. Those wheels and tires are connected to either longitudinal structural members or axles that help to displace the crash energy. Each door also has a side brace installed."
End of Quote:
And a quote from smartUSA on what active safety features help out:
"The smart fortwo comes standard with many active safety features that will introduce you to a whole new set of acronyms and keep you safer in the process.
esp® - One of the standard features on your smart fortwo is something called Electronic Stability Program or esp®. When the esp® sensors indicate a skid or swerving of your car, they automatically control the engine throttle and the Anti-Lock brakes to maintain your present course. Also integral to the esp® safety system is Electronic Brake-Force Distribution Control (EBD), which helps to prevent the rear wheels from over-braking.
ABS - A feature of esp®, Anti-Lock Brake Systems (ABS) will apply and release each brake independently to keep you from skidding regardless of the type of road surface each wheel is on.
CBC - When you enter a corner and apply your brakes, the unequal forces at each wheel can result in a skid or a complete "end-around." With Cornering Brake Control (CBC) the inner wheels require less brake force due to less traction. CBC counteracts a potential tendency to swerve by distributing brake forces selectively - even below the threshold of ABS activity.
BAS - Avoiding accidents is often measured in inches. Electronic Brake Assist can sense when you have stepped on the brake quickly but have not applied it hard enough to activate the ABS system. It can be the difference in reaction time you need to avoid an accident.
ASC and ETC - Acceleration Skid Control (ASC) and Engine Torque Control (ETC) are designed to help the smart fortwo move forward on slippery surfaces. ASC acts much like a differential lock but does it by directing power to the wheel offering optimum traction. ETC provides engine control when driving on slippery surfaces. It "feathers" the throttle on low traction acceleration and limits torque in down shifting applications.
HSA - The 5-speed automated manual transmission of the smart fortwo is equipped with Hill Start Assist (HSA) which allows you to pull away on a hill without having to apply the handbrake. As you lift your foot from the brake pedal while stopped on a hill, HSA holds the brakes for about a second to give you time to move your foot to the accelerator."
End:
Yes, smaller cars do recieve loads more of force as compared to other larger cars and your chance of serious injury is greatly increased. The engineers over at smart had designed the car to take the force and dissipate it all over the body and actually into the other car so that forces on the occupants would not be as great.
Yes, if you get into a crash with another larger car with equal ratings (smart vs. Crossfox, smart might win easily) you're taking a risk of recieving greater injury than the other driver.
Yes, buying a Prius is a better decision if safety is one of your main concerns, no doubt about it. (what's the Prius' faults is a discussion for another day).
BUT, the smart may not be the safest car out there BUT it is not an unsafe vehicle by no means and it is NOT a deathtrap.
I knew most of what you say about safety features on the Smart. Seatbelt pretentioners are old news. All cars have them now. 4 airbags is subpar these days. Even the Hyundai Accent, the cheapest car in the US, has 6 airbags standard. Truth is most cars these days have all those safety features and more.
The Smart NEEDS stability control standard because quite frankly without it, the handling would be dangerous because of it's tall body and narrow width. It's already been shown they tip over very easily without stability control.
Among all small cars, it's really not even the safest. That honor seems to go to the Nissan Versa in the US. It got very good ratings all around. Better than Smart in side and rear crash. Lower forces on the body too in frontal crash thanks to a longer front end which means less likely for internal injury. The difference in price is negligible, not to mention is one of the roomiest cars in it's class.
Do you know how much tires cost for the Smart? I'm curious. They are undoubtedly special order. No shop will have them in stock. I saw on Ebay a tune-up kit for the Smart and it costs over $300. This led me to believe it's a very costly car to keep up. The last two cars I've owned cost under $40 for a tune up and they were both so easy to work on I could do it myself in less than an hour. Not so sure about the Smart. You keep mentioning how cheap it is to replace the body panels, but it'd have to be such a slight fender bender to only crack the body panels and not do any damage underneath the skin.
The final salvo from me
Quote:
All the tire stores around me carry them in stock. And most of them are cheaper than larger sizes. As for the tune-up kits there are none available for the current smart (451). The ones on eBay are for the older (450) smart, which is powered by a turbocharged Mercedes engine that was high maintenance. Many owners go DIY and do oil changes and engine tunes themselves for about $20-$40. Oil changes are easy because the most labor you do is open up the drain plug and change the oil filter.
For example, here's someone that does their own changes
The position of the engine and its components make it easier for the owner to work on their own car. Although some mechanics find the small engine hard to work on because certain parts are not in the position they would be on any other car.
If you're lazy and want the dealer to take care of the oil change and other maintenance, the dealer will do it for about $100. The smart's computer has a service indicator that notifies you every 10,000 miles to change the oil and maintain the car, rather it be by you or the dealer.
The smart falls into the Microcar category and the smart's competition in the USA (Yaris, Fit, Mini, Accent) fall into the Minicar category. The Versa falls into the Small car category. So saying that the Versa is the safest small car is very true, although the smart's Microcar category is 2 categories smaller than Small cars. So it's compared to Minicars, where it shines bright even though it's a category smaller.
Yes, 4 airbags is subpar these days but considering the smart's size, 4 airbags cover about the same amount of space that 6 would on a bigger car.
The Hyundai Accent is an interesting comparison, because despite the fact that it has 6 airbags its ratings were poor and it had only hit a fixed object. In fact it earns the poorest rating in the nation and it's larger than a smart.
It was rated:
Front - Acceptable
Side - Poor
Rear - Poor
Roof - Acceptable
The Chevy Aveo (rebadged Daewoo btw) did no better.
What's interesting is that this thread is a micro-reflection of the real world of science. Many times in the research world, one can not have all the data and has to make assumptions. The scientific debate will center around whether the assumptions were reasonable or not. Then again, the debate may center on how to interpret the data.
But PaleBeachBum of YouTube only considers controlled testing as opposed to both controlled testing and real life scenarios.
And he keeps bringing up G-Forces no matter how many times I can type that the smart's engineers had that in mind when designing the safety aspects of the car!
And the most brutal of all car reviewers, Top Gear, applaud the smart for its "suit of armor" type of safety. And their cousin, Fifth Gear, couldn't get enough of smart!
I will fight to the end, opinion shall not win over factual truth.
And just to think, he bases how much miles people put on their smart by looking at what's for sale on eBay!
Really, EBAY?
And he says that they're expensive because they're made by MB and they've been here for a year so parts are near impossible to get...
Blah blah...any REAL info he wants to throw at me?
Last edited by Neonspinnazz; 10-07-2009 at 07:04 PM.
The biggest problem with controlled testing is that one can be testing something that is not a true reflection of the real world. IMHO, reality always wins over theory.
The biggest problem with controlled testing is that one can be testing something that is not a true reflection of the real world. IMHO, reality always wins over theory.
The AutoGuide.com network consists of the largest network of enthusiast-owned enthusiast-operated automotive communities.
AutoGuide.com provides the latest car reviews, auto show coverage, new car prices, and automotive news. The AutoGuide network operates more than 100 automotive forums where our users consult peers for shopping information and advice, and share opinions as a community.
The Beast
The Chick Magnet
1 - LT N FLFY
2 - Forests ride
3 - Little Blue
4 - Big Red
Today
Linear Mode
