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There are two known cases of language development where the child did NOT learn any spoken language before puberty. The post puberty child was taught language later in life, but the person could never deal with sentence structure.
For example, "The Boy hit the Ball." and "The Ball hit the Boy." have very different meanings. In both cases, the person could provide all the words, but never in the correct order. This suggests that once puberty is reached, things are set into stone for that person.
I'm guessing here, BUT maybe there is a series of genetic links that increases or decreases the probability of being gay and depending on how the child responds to either reinforce or change, alters the outcome. I'm also guessing that the process happens at a very young age and once puberty is reached, it's set in stone.
I could be wrong with my guess, but it would help to explain why the studies as to choice or genetics are contradictory.
Hey Bob - you might be on to something. It sounds logical, but in the same breath I would say we are all products of our environment - especially during the first couple years. When I was younger, back in high school I had to go to under go counciling because I was outted. It was a Christian School and in order to continue there I had to "be cured" so I went along and finished the year - they never did 'cure' me, but they tried really hard. I went back to public schools for my senior year and haven't looked back since...
I think at some point we all ask - 'why are we different' and 'am I defective' - some people get past that question and some never do. It becomes a practice of acceptance of one's self...
Last edited by bradgarbus; 09-03-2009 at 10:57 AM..
I'm also guessing that if correct, the pattern is set at a very young age, maybe 2 --> 5 years. (No proof, just a guess...)
One little interesting bit, when PET scans of both adult straight and gay men are compared, there is a difference in the images. Thus begs the question, does the difference in the brain cause the difference in behavior OR does the difference in behavior cause the difference in the brain?
It would be interesting to see a study of thousands of men from starting at age 1 and following up at ages 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, and 20 to see when this pattern develops.
Wow, this has been a fascinating thread to read from end-to-end. It amazes me how varied our perspectives are of "gays."
Frankly, I've known MANY gays and lesbians throughout my life, and have been quite impressed with the sheer level of intelligence that the group as a whole has displayed.
My mother was an ER nurse while I was growing up, and most of the ER doctors were, in fact, gay. I never realized that it was an issue! My kids also were raised in the presence of gays, and although they did ask me after leaving some friends' house one time why the ladies kissed each other, they also never knew any difference. Now as adults, they too have more than a few gay and lesbian friends and associates, as do I.
What makes a person homosexual? Who really knows. Some schools of thought suggest that it is in the DNA, and others believe it is an accumulation of life experiences. One day perhaps there will be a more definitive answer, but meanwhile, I prefer to see people as exactly that... PEOPLE. What they choose to do in the privacy of their own home is totally up to them, not me. I don't ask, they don't tell, and I enjoy having them as friends just as much, if not more than everyone else!
Homosexuality has existed as long as Homosapiens have. Perhaps longer, even. Everyone is equal, I don't care what color, creed, or sexual orientation you are. Inside, we are all exactly the same. We all laugh, we all cry, we have the same needs and wants. It is my opinion that everyone should just quit judging everyone else, and we all just try to get along as equals. One love, man!
I strongly object to having "gayness" shoved down my throat. You can have your "gay pride" parades as long as I can have a "straight pride" parade and am allowed to jam my straightness down YOUR throat!
Doenut,
Here's the part you don't understand: Your "straight pride" ISshoved down the throat of every gay person every day. You see a couple walking down the street holding hands once a year in a parade and ask "Why do the force their 'gayness' on me?" What you don't realize is how many times a day you see heterosexual images, and how many times a day gay people have that "forced" on them.
How many times this week have you seen a straight couple holding hands, sharing a long glance, or kissing? How many movies, sitcoms or commercials have you seen where there were straight couples either implied in or shown sharing intimate moments? How many parades have you seen with newly married couples marching with a church group, or parents marching with their kids in scouts or 4H, or some other such thing? Now think about how many times you've seen that with a gay couple? Two or three times? In a parade? What's that fraction of the number to times you've seen it, gay vs straight? 1/10? 1/1000? 1/100,000? Every time you're "forced" to see a gay couple show affection, that gay couple has had images of straight affection inflicted on them tens of thousands of times. And you're the one complaining?
Yes... Some of the parades are insane. You see the loudest, squeakiest wheels out there in the big city parades. The flamboyant ones are the ones that want dress up, or strip down, and stand out in the crowd. But that's true in the straight community as well. Have you never heard of Mardi Gras? Stay up late some night and look at the ads for "Girls Gone Wild" and you'll see plenty of far more graphic heterosexual parade footage, aired on national TV every night! Can you find the equivalent for "Gays Gone Wild"? You see straight celebrities in the news all the time being sexually explicit. Should we judge straight people based on how often Hilton, Lohan, and Spears show off their cooters at night clubs? Why are you judging gays based on their parade Hiltons?
If you want to see the real face of a gay community go to a less "public" event, like an AIDS benefit or a gay film festival. Or go to a parade in a medium sized town or city. Here in Rochester, for example, the gay pride parade consists of 2 floats from local gay bars, 5 to 10 more from gay activity groups (bowling leagues, motorcycle groups, etc), and then 20+ groups from local area churches. You read that right.. churches. People in sweaters and jeans, holding banners for marriage equality, marching with their friends and partners. There's a picnic afterward in the park, and plenty of families are there. No nudity, maybe a dozen drag queens at most, and thousands of people participating.
You celebrate your sexuality 365 days a year without even realizing it. Every time you mention your wife (or your daughter for that matter). Every time you hold her hand, or kiss her hello or good bye in public. Every time you see a romance movie, or go out dancing, or to a private dinner together... These are things that gay people have literally been killed for doing in public, because someone saw them or heard them and said "Why are they 'forcing' their gayness on me?", got angry, and attacked them for it. Matthew Shepard, Julio Rivera, Brandon Teena, Roxanne Ellis and Michelle Abdill, Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder, Steen Fenrich, Arthur Warren, Jody Dobrowsk, Paul Broussard, Philip Walsted, Sakia Gunn, Richie Phillips, Jason Gage, Roberto Duncanson, Sean Kennedy, Steven Parrish, August Provost.... And hundreds more, all killed in the past 11 years during the most accepting decade of gay life in America, because they appeared to be or were gay. That's not event talking about the thousands of hate crimes, beatings, rapes, and vandalism done against people based just on their sexuality.
If you though someone seeing you kiss your wife good bye in public, or hearing you say "Love you" as you parted, could result in them attacking you, or her, and/or beating one or both of you to death, would you do it? Next time you see someone publicly showing gay affection, or doing something else that lets you know they're gay, stop and think: If you had do deal with that level of hate and intolerance from the majority of people around you, would you have what it takes to show it? It may just change your perspective on things.
I'm also guessing that if correct, the pattern is set at a very young age, maybe 2 --> 5 years. (No proof, just a guess...)
There have been studies done that show differences even before that Bob. There was one paper based in the UK that shows some interesting corollaries between hormonal levels in pregnant women and their child's sexuality later in life. Interesting reads.
I don't know honestly when it's set, and again, that may be different for each person. And even then, it's not "set". Results from some of the studies Kinsey did back in the 1940s and 50s show that human sexuality fluxuates on the "Kinsey Scale" by up to a full point every 7 years. (The scale rates sexuality with total heterosexuality as 0 and total homosexuality as 6, with pure bisexuals being 3.) If those studies are correct, it could explain why some people don't even feel bisexual or homosexual feelings until they're in their 40s or 50s. And why on occasion gay and lesbian people "convert" to a heterosexual life in those same age ranges, which does happen on occasion.
It's a very interesting topic that sees almost no open conversation in the US because of the puritanical taboo about discussing anything remotely approaching sex or sexuality, for fear that somewhere someone may hear them and be scared or label them a pervert. Or, God forbid, a child hear an open discussion about such an "adult" topic.
Off topic:
I was over in Europe recently and found myself stunned with how open people are with sexuality there. Some friends I was staying with were expecting, and when the topic came up their 3 year old child was quite up to speed on "where babies come from". There were no storks, or bees, just a very frank understanding of how a baby is conceived and comes into being. I was a little taken aback at just how much this 3 year old knew, which I realize now was culture shock.
When I asked them later how that happened they looked at me as if I'd grown horns. She asked, they told her; what else would they do? They even used a kind of flip-book at the library (in the childrens section) to show how everything happens, with illustrated drawings. It went from "Mommy & Daddy decide to have a baby", right through the naughty bits, unabashedly, through Mommy's tummy growing, to the delivery room, and the first few weeks when the baby needs lots of attention. That simple. A 10 minute walk to the library and 20 minutes of reading a book together and talking honestly with their child, and they're all set. In 12 years when she starts noticing boys she'll know just where babies come from, what causes it, and how to prevent it. No mystery, no storks, no dirtiness or shame or fear or lies. Which explains the massively lower rate of teen pregnancy in Europe vs the US. :P
Doenut,
Here's the part you don't understand: Your "straight pride" ISshoved down the throat of every gay person every day. You see a couple walking down the street holding hands once a year in a parade and ask "Why do the force their 'gayness' on me?" What you don't realize is how many times a day you see heterosexual images, and how many times a day gay people have that "forced" on them.
Woody, THANK YOU!!!
The first time I read doenut's blurb this morning I was in a hurry to go to work, but I was planning to reply something very similar to your post when I had a chance. You took my thoughts, my words and made them into a very simple to understand and eloquent text! People like doenut take for granted certain rights, financial & social privileges and benefits in a society where "straightness" is the "norm" and think they are great for just bearing slight resemblance to "tolerance" for homosexual people, as far as the said homosexuals are, well, discrete, invisible. The Don't Ask Don't Tell nonsense.
The not so far past: Nazi Policy Toward Homosexuals - Gay males, probably the most brutalized group in concentration camps during the Holocaust. Curiously, lesbians were not persecuted by the Nazis.
To all the family out there, has anyone thought of any interesting ways you might show your pride? I was thinking of the HRC sticker in the back window...
I am going for the Passion Coupe, fully loaded with full extended warranty.
I have an HRC " = love conquers hate" vinyl on my back window
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