Where is that stinking COOLANT drain plug? =)

[homeslice]

Originally Posted by mdfortwoguy

First off... please don't turn this into a downhill Amsoil argument again.

Second - I wouldn't trust one of these as far as I could fling it. These cars haven't been around long enough for a good 3rd party manual, and anything that may be EU sourced isn't going to cover a lot of the North American specific parts of the smart.

Please stop being so defensive. You're only instigating arguments when you do this.

Thanks.

[mdfortwoguy]

Originally Posted by homeslice

Please stop being so defensive. You're only instigating arguments when you do this.

Thanks.

No, I'm not. I would just not like to see a 4th thread go downhill. Let it go.

[Old smart]

watching.

[Allargando DiFortissimo]

I've read that the big deal with keeping older coolant (anti-freeze) in your car is that the PH level changes with time and/or use... which can be a bad thing. Of course, the 300k+ Honda speaks volumes about "it ain't necessarily so." I'm thinking that, if one could keep tabs on the PH level, then add the proper "stuff" to nudge it one way or the other as-needed, then one MIGHT be able to get by with fewer coolant changes. However, I DON'T KNOW THIS.

I don't know to what extent age diminishes the anti-freeze's ability to.... errr, "not freeze," but that's another thing to watch for. As warm as it is where I live, I could probably get by with no "anti-freeze" properties in my coolant, so "diminished" would be just fine. But since I don't know, I'll be changing it at the recommended time.

I do, however, intend to find a quick/cheap way to check the PH level. I checked with a friend of mine (who works in a well-equipped lab situation) and there are pieces of equipment for doing this. But--and it's a BIG but (about three feet wide!)--they are finicky (at least his are), expensive, and there are consumables to be kept up with. I'll look more into the "litmus paper" end of things.

I have a friend who owns/runs his own garage (meaning, he's still active in the day-to-day auto problem world; I am not), and Tommy says he likes Toyota's branded anti-freeze better than any others he's tried simply because it holds the line on PH balance better than any he's used. HOWEVER, I don't have a list of what he has--and has not--used. So it means what it means.

DEXCOOL:
GM's Dexcool was a good idea, but early iterations of it failed in the field. My understanding is that they've fixed the issue and it's now good (great?) stuff, but I haven't Googled for info on it in years now.

BOTTOM LINE:
'Til I find out I can be SURE about the condition of the anti-freeze in my car(s), I'll change it on schedule. My Prius has gone 65k miles and original coolant is still a clean translucent crystal color. This suggests that there's little-or-no galvanic activity, nor are there any corrosion issues.

GALVANIC:
Does anyone KNOW if the Smart has an anode of sacrificial metal somewhere in the coolant path? Home water heaters have such devices in them (replacable too!), and the makeup of this anode varies by location and soil/mineral composition. For this reason, I use DISTILLED WATER ONLY in my coolant systems... and also in those batteries that make allowances for "topping up." No need to introduce a mineral smorgasboard into my coolant system just so I can see "what happens if..."

Also, I'm not aware that factory-installed coolant is always junk. I suppose it might depend on which factory, but my Toyota Prius came with a coolant listed among the best available, and that's from testing AND anecdotal results. It couldn't be THAT bad!

PS: I checked a jug of Toyota's coolant and found there were several "A"s to be found. None of them, however, were of the big, bold capital variety.

Bestooyoo'all,
ADiF

[Old smart]

Originally Posted by Allargando DiFortissimo

... GALVANIC:
Does anyone KNOW if the Smart has an anode of sacrificial metal somewhere in the coolant path? Home water heaters have such devices in them (replacable too!), and the makeup of this anode varies by location and soil/mineral composition. For this reason, I use DISTILLED WATER ONLY in my coolant systems... and also in those batteries that make allowances for "topping up." No need to introduce a mineral smorgasboard into my coolant system just so I can see "what happens if..." ... ADiF

About the only sacrificial anode materials "less noble" than aluminum are zinc and magnesium, and they are not much less noble. The anode would have to be somewhere in constant contact with the coolant (the electrolyte) - the coolant reservoir probably wouldn't work. If there was a sacrificial anode somewhere it would have to be periodically replaced and would be included in the service program, thus I'm sure the smart doesn't have one. My cast iron Mitsu diesel does have an anode (in the saltwater side of the NIBRAL-tubed heat exchanger). It must be replaced once a year.

My guess is that if the recommended products are used there is no issue with electrolysis.

[Padawan]

Originally Posted by Old smart

BTW, the smart approved coolants are:

"Antifreeze/Coolant
Specification MB 325.0
Mobil Permazone Antifreeze/Coolant (Ed. green color)
Mobil Permazone 50/50 Prediluted
Old World Industries EURO Peak Coolant/Antifreeze
Valvoline/Zerex G05
Valvoline/Zerex G48 (Ed. blue color)
BASF Glysantin G05"

N.B. Investigation has so far revealed that the above products are not over-the-counter at the U.S. parts places, but distributed to Euro car dealers only. One hit did indicate that Mobil Permazone could be special ordered through NAPA (its color should be green not pink). The above products are formulated for aluminum engines.

I certainly agree with you in that it's always safe to stick with what the manufacturer recommends, but I think the issue we keep encountering with "smart-approved" fluids is that they're in fact simply "Mercedes-approved" fluids (and neither MB nor smart make attempts to hide this).

It seems as though MB/Daimler (or Penske) has taken the easier route of keeping all the Daimler cars on the same basic page as far a fluids go, without actually doing further investigation to see if different or additional fluids might work just as well (or possibly even better) in the smart. As it stands, all of the fluids on the MB spec sheet are high-end and benign, and therefore quite "safe" in that regard. However, it makes one wonder what the engineers would have drafted had they been given a blank sheet of paper and asked to create a true "smart-approved" list.

Had the little Mitsu 3B2 been installed in a vehicle from a manufacturer other than Daimler, chances are good that many of the specified fluids would be different. It is, after all, not terribly unique among small aluminium engines.

Either way, we'll probably never know, but as time passes we will almost certainly see people experimenting with different fluids not on the approved list, and from this we'll be able to glean more understanding of exactly what this little car prefers.

[Old smart]

Originally Posted by Padawan

... However, it makes one wonder what the engineers would have drafted had they been given a blank sheet of paper and asked to create a true "smart-approved" list.

Had the little Mitsu 3B2 been installed in a vehicle from a manufacturer other than Daimler, chances are good that many of the specified fluids would be different. It is, after all, not terribly unique among small aluminium engines. ...

With regard to the engineers and the blank sheet of paper, the real deal is what the Mitsu engineers wrote on the blank sheet. DAG/M-B/smart/smartUSA et al seem determined to not have that published. "You vill do ahs ve kommand." Verstehenze?"

The Mitsu 3B2x has been used elsewhere besides by smart. The 3B20T, in 660cc turbo form, is used in the Mitsu i-Car and sold and serviced by Mitsu. A couple of UK members have spoken to Mitsu dealers and confirmed to me that Mitsu cares nothing about M-B's "Sheets" in the recommendations for engine oils. Their only stipulation for the 3B20T is that it is full-synthetic and of the appropriate viscosity. Probably the same relaxation when it comes to coolants too, so long as they are proper for aluminum engines.

[jwight]

This should work fine: About Us - PEAK

However, many new vehicles today come factory filled with extended life antifreeze that is designed to protect cooling systems for up to 150,000 miles or five years. When replacing extended-life antifreeze be sure to use a proven brand, such as the popular PEAK Extended Life® antifreeze & coolant, which is compatible with DEX-COOL® standards and meets Japanese car manufacturers’ silicate-free requirements and European car manufacturers’ phosphate-free requirements.

I'm sure there are others out there as well.

[Karl Roth]

The ethylene glycol that keeps the "coolant" from freezing is just as good after 20 years as when it first goes in. Contamination and the degradation of the additive package are the reason to change it. Dumping this stuff on the ground or in the drains is a very bad idea. Poisonous, non biodegradable gallons of material to carry off to the recycling point.
Not hard work but why even bother at this point? The oldest cars here are just a few years old. what do we hope to accomplish?
karl

[homeslice]

Originally Posted by Karl Roth

Not hard work but why even bother at this point? The oldest cars here are just a few years old. what do we hope to accomplish?
karl

In my case to put it in and forget about it for the next 250,000 miles. That could take me 10 years or so to put that many miles. In 2 years I've managed to put 74,000 miles on the car I have now when I was commuting far to work every day.

I like the idea of "set it and forget it" philosophy.

I change rename my handle from "homeslice" to "tightwad" since I am so cheap.