Just bought a 2005 450 on ebay

[Mike T]

Originally Posted by RIderInTX

Really? First I've heard of this. Was just wondering if that is based on fact or opinion.

silverbrabus nailed it.

I've been on the European smart forums (smart-forum.de, Funkysmart.co.uk, now smart maniacs, thesmartclub.co.uk, smart up France, etc) since mid-2002 (when I first got on the Canadian waiting list) and comprehensive/extensive information in these forums indicates that the 599 cc and 698 cc Suprex engines are definitely the weakest link in the car.

I've no doubt that's a major reason why smart went to Mitsubishi for the second generation fortwo - their attempts to make the Suprex reliable were not too fruitful.

I was having second thoughts about buying one of these in Canada before they announced in 2003 that we would get the diesel instead, which has proven to be much more robust (hence it remains in production in the second generation car). And even the diesel is not like one of the 500,000 mile Mercedes diesels of old, though they seem to be quite reliable, at least much more so than the 450 gas engines.

So given the choice between a 450 gasser and a 451 gasser, on the basis of likely reliability alone, the newer model would be my choice every time. It is ironic, because some posts suggest the "Mercedes-engined original smart" is superior to the "Mitsubishi-engined second generation smart". Add the convenience of dealer support and it's a no-brainer in the USA.

In Canada the 451 gasser versus 450 diesel debate is a little more in balance, the main difference being that the diesels are all used now and their maintenance regime is almost twice as rigourous as that of the 451.

[cfreidma]

Thanks everyone for the wealth of information. I'm sure this is going to be an adventure well worth it.

Briansmart, The car only has 3000 miles on it.

I chose the MB Smart car for several reasons.
It's fun.
It is the smallest of the two models, 450, 451.
According to my research the 450 should get better mileage that the 451.
According to reviews I've read the MB engine is a good one.
I guess time will tell but I'm sure I'm going to love the car regardless.
In the meantime, I'm trying to learn as much as possible and do plan on doing maintenance myself. I'm not necessarily a gifted mechanic. Hopefully the maintenance manual I ordered is going to be my ticket.

I could have gone the easy route as I was considering a first generation Honda Insight. I just think the Smarts are very cool.

I'll keep you guys posted on the progress. The car does have a Pennsylvania title. It's being mailed certified.

[RIderInTX]

Originally Posted by cfreidma

I chose the MB Smart car for several reasons.
It's fun.
It is the smallest of the two models, 450, 451.
According to my research the 450 should get better mileage that the 451.
According to reviews I've read the MB engine is a good one.

In my opinion I think you made a good choice. I too like the 450 because it is what caused all the original excitement in the U.S. and I wanted one since the first time I saw a picture of one. By the time they arrived in the U.S. it was a slightly different car and not exactly what I wanted. Thanks to the availability of the G&K cars I was able to get a 450. I like it because it is smaller and, to me, a cooler looking car. Having a smart car of any type is unique, but having a 450 is unique among the unique. Yes, parts and service availability can be a bit of a challenge but if you are willing to be somewhat patient and also diligent you will persevere. Mike T and silverbrabus bring up reliability issues and there could be some merit to what they say, but I am not so sure about it. I say this because forums of any type of vehicle seem to have numerous complaints about the vehicle but relatively few postings about how great the vehicle is. Most people (including me) tend to only post when experiencing a problem. The end result is that this gives the impression that the car is no good, when in actuality the complainers may represent only a very small percent of the whole.

Good luck with your car. You should find what you need to keep it up and running by using this website and many others that are filled with some really good information and advice.

Bill

[cfreidma]

Thanks Riderintx. I agree with you. Whereas the engine may be 'high strung', I think as a commuter car in winter it should be fine. I'm hoping the mpg will be close to 50. We'll see.

...And this morning I purchased the Pella oil sucker, oil, and an oil filter.
It's a relief to see stuff is available on ebay, especially that smartcarparts has tune up kits available for 450's. I've never really liked working on cars. I guess that is going to change.

I don't even have the car yet.

[briansmart]

Originally Posted by Big Panda

briansmart: "Most importantly is Penske has forbidden their Smart dealerships to work on the 450"

"As for service in your area you're in luck. Paul Myers is the services manager at Smart Center Denver (actually in Englewood on S Broadway) is an amazing individual. He will work on your 450."


I'm ....which is it? Do they work on 450s or are they forbidden to work on them?

If they DO work on 450s Brian, I hope by 'outing' Paul, you didn't get him in trouble with smart USA or smart center Denver.

Yes Smart Centers are not allowed to work on the 450. HOWEVER, I have encountered two that will do it. One is Smart Center Denver and another is the Smart Center at Mercedes of Buckehad in Atlanta, GA. They work on them when the "higher ups" are not around. Both have been very open with me about it.

Paul has been very open about his willingness to work on the 450s. I still speak with him on the phone about once a month or so. He has 450 customers that he was working with before the ban was in place and he continues to work with them. He is trying to get Smart Corporate to change their stance on servicing the 450s. He believes that if the 450 owners are treated fairly, once it comes time for them to replace their 450, they will gladly do so with the newest that the Smart Center has to offer (my fingers are crossed for a roadster).

Paul will also work on any vehicle. He has worked on many different makes and models and Smart Center Denver is willing to let him do repair work on all kinds of vehicles. For a young "startup" company, revenue is king and Paul is doing everything he can to have that store bring in revenue.

[briansmart]

cfreidma, thats something about the Smart, regardless of model. It is so modular it just begs one to tinker around with it. A perfect example is the Evilution site, the modifications section of the SCoA forums and numerous parts available for both cars.

If you get tired of sucking the oil out of the smart everytime you want to change the oil, you can have a drain plug added to the oil pan. Call Smart Center Denver and ask for the services manager. Introduce yourself, tell him you "met" me and that you'd like to know if he could install a drain plug for you. Also might be a good idea for him to give the engine a good looking over. With only 3000 miles on it, I imagine all of the original fluids might be in it (yuck!) and it might be a good idea to freshen everything up.

[Big Panda]

Originally Posted by briansmart

Yes Smart Centers are not allowed to work on the 450. HOWEVER, I have encountered two that will do it. One is Smart Center Denver and another is the Smart Center at Mercedes of Buckehad in Atlanta, GA. They work on them when the "higher ups" are not around. Both have been very open with me about it.

Paul will also work on any vehicle. He has worked on many different makes and models and Smart Center Denver is willing to let him do repair work on all kinds of vehicles. For a young "startup" company, revenue is king and Paul is doing everything he can to have that store bring in revenue.

This is great! I'm happy to hear that a smart center is not 'centered' around the 451. I for one would welcome any and all smarts if I were the owner of a smart center. As you said, as a 'startup company', I can't see for the life of me how some of these smart centers think they'll exist without taking in other vehicles to work on. After all, $$ pays the bills, not exclusivity.

I've said it before, I LOVE the 450s. My concern was just getting parts for it and finding someone to service it. Looks like those in the Denver and Atlanta have a decided advantage when it comes to that.

Best to all Original 450 owners and hope to see YOU guys out in force at the Nationals next year in KC!!!

[briansmart]

Big Panda, the important thing here - and I think you mentioned it - is that everyone seems to be finding the car they want. Which is key.

Another important thing is this forum. I believe SMART et al created this to exchange information so we Smart owners - regardless of model - can help each other.

That said ANY Smart owner would do well to find a local, independent Mercedes Benz repair shop in their area by using benzshops.com Its always good to have a backup mechanic "just in case"

[Mike T]

The engine failure modes are fairly limited:

Firstly, if there is a leaky manifold issue that can lean out the fuel mixture to one or more of the cylinders, leading to a major engine failure. The symptom is surging while at steady speed. As I wrote above, if you experience this, do not drive the car until the condition of the intake and exhaust manifold can be 100% verified. So it is preventable.

Secondly, if you use anything but the finest fully synthetic oils that met MB spec, the piston rings will gum up over time leading to massive oil consumption, to the point that the sump can run dry in a week, starving the bearings and toasting the engine. This too is preventable: only use Mobil 1 0W40 European formula or another oil on the approved list from M-B and it is less likely to occur. Also, monitor oil consumption carefully - it won't un-gum the rings but it will mean the car shouldn't run dry of oil. The low compression due to stuck rings will affect driveability and starting in colder weather.....eventually leading to an engine that won't run. So use good oil!!!

Thirdly there appears to be a weakness in the system for the chain driven oil pump. The failures in these systems are not unique to the gas engine - the diesel has this problem too. What to do about it is to listen for unusual noises from the engine and if you hear any, have the state of the oil pump drive chain and tensioner verified.

Although the Internet is full of horror stories about problems with all makes of car, the smart Suprex engine (599/698 cc) is more fragile than most and so paying attention to the above could protect the 450 owner from expensive problems (a new engine is $7000, though rebuilt long blocks are readily available on the German aftermarket for as little as 1400 Euros).

[RIderInTX]

Mike T;

Those are some really good tips. Thanks. I'm using the 0W40 Mobil 1. A little more expensive but I guess it is cheap compared to the cost of a new engine!

Bill