Newbie Question (2005 smart)

[RIderInTX]

Hi;

Very interested in an almost new 2005 Smart Car. I was wondering if someone could tell me what the plusses and minuses are between these European versions and the ones now coming through regular channels.

Also, what is a 450? Is that another name for the European version?

This is what I think I know so far: They have a turbo Mercedes engine rather than a Mitsubishi. This is a good thing? Are they faster, more reliable, etc?

They are shorter. By about 7 inches?

They were brought over to the US and converted by G&K to meet U.S. Specs.

If I am wrong on any of these things please let me know.

Questions:

Who works on them? Mercedes? Smart dealership?

Any problems with them? Are they more desireable than the newer ones?

Would I be better off with the newer one?

Somebody please throw me a line. Give me the honest good and bad. I would really appreciate it.

Bill
Corpus Christi, TX

[John_H]

Originally Posted by RIderInTX

Hi;

Very interested in an almost new 2005 Smart Car. I was wondering if someone could tell me what the plusses and minuses are between these European versions and the ones now coming through regular channels.

I'll give you my thoughts though I may be inaccurate in a couple spots.

Originally Posted by RIderInTX

Also, what is a 450? Is that another name for the European version?

The 450 is the Fortwo model until 2007 when the 451 started production. Today's European models are also 451s.

Originally Posted by RIderInTX

This is what I think I know so far: They have a turbo Mercedes engine rather than a Mitsubishi. This is a good thing? Are they faster, more reliable, etc?

I don't have engine stats but something the marketing folks derived from their research into the American market was that the planned 40hp engine just would not do. We now have a 71hp engine which meets the desires of a broader number of americans but knocks us on mileage. So the Mercedes engine - while probably less powerful - should produce better mileage.

Originally Posted by RIderInTX

They are shorter. By about 7 inches?

They were brought over to the US and converted by G&K to meet U.S. Specs.

If I am wrong on any of these things please let me know.

I think you have your data pretty good on those points.

Originally Posted by RIderInTX

Questions:

Who works on them? Mercedes? Smart dealership?

Unfortunately I don't think you'll get anyone taking ownership on repairs. These G&K units are more like the red-headed step-child as far as the parent companies go. Where was the car purchased and is that dealership still in business? The G&K "in" might be the only way to have a reliable service connection.

Originally Posted by RIderInTX

Any problems with them? Are they more desireable than the newer ones?

The newer cars are gutsier and you have the full support of SmartUSA with it's inherent service network though that can get a bit spotty in some areas of the US (geographically).

Somebody has to buy the old ones though, don't they?

Originally Posted by RIderInTX

Would I be better off with the newer one?

Probably for the service and support issues alone unless you're close to Canada! Corpus Christi? Long drive.

Originally Posted by RIderInTX

Somebody please throw me a line. Give me the honest good and bad. I would really appreciate it.

Bill
Corpus Christi, TX

I'd personally go for the newer one because my personal preference is for something that can be maintained and supported without going through intestinal discomfort. If you're a shade-tree mechanic and can be sidelined for a couple weeks waiting on parts, this could be a great opportunity. Buying accessories in the US is simple for the new model, not so easy for the older ones without going internation on the purchases.

Good luck and may your final decision make you very happy!

[ASmartMan]

RIderInTX

I own a 450 and here is what I know.

As previously explained the 450 for two was the was the model till 2007, when MB switched production to the new 451 for two.

1 member on this board has reported 100K mile on their G&K modified 450 giving us all hope, the only version imported by G&K was the 62 HP versions.

Service, well it's a crap shoot, I'm lucky, I have a dealer that has a G&K trained mechanic about 30 miles away and this dealership appears to be able to get any part I've needed or wanted (so far). MB will not support these cars, Smart dealerships will NOT support them, yet any part can be had with in 24 hours, except the extra cost of overnight-ing from the EU.

I average 44 MPG of mixed normal driving, when I try REALLY hard I once got it up to 56 MPG but the driving was SSOO un-natural (for me), now I put it in auto and just hit the gas.

For your question "Would I be better off with the newer one?" that's a tough one that doesn't have a simple answer.

Reason for the answer to be NO: Very limited service, cost more, always a risk of having a 20K paperweight sitting in the driveway.

Reason for YES: you knowledgeable about cars and don't mind if you had to work on them. G&K only converted 1026 making them kinda unique. You have a little extra cash and have nerves of steel.

In closing, do a lot of research and at the end of that research if you still need to ask "Should I or Shouldn't I" then DON"T buy it, check out the EU forums on 450 there is a lot of info there and you can get a feel for its reliability as well as the common failures.

I researched for 3 months prior to making the purchase so I knew exactly what I was getting into.

I had my 450 for just about 2 years and have clocked 24K miles so far and the only service I've had done is oil and air filter changes. the 30 K mark is when it costs a little more (Plugs, other filters, Xmission oil @40 K breaks and belts)

Well I hope it helped

ASM

[RIderInTX]

Thanks "John H" and "Asmartman." I realize I asked a bunch of subjective questions but those were some really good answers and I appreciate you both taking the time to help me out.

Here is one more question. Has anyone done a visual comparison between the two versions (450/451)? The numbers say the 450 is 7" shorter but I cannot really see a difference in pictures other than minor details. Where is the 7" difference? Is the frame the same and it is only the bumpers that are somewhat extended, or what? Same for the 1" width - Is that only because of different tires? Has anyone gone to any kind of rally or club meet and seen the two cars side-by-side? If so, were they markedly different, or is the size negligable? Okay, that was more than one question, but it is all on the same subject - size.

Bill

[John_H]

The 450 does appear smaller. I haven't seen many around but there put the accent on "diminutive."

[smartie yank]

Bill,
The red smart third car back is a 450. You can see the subtle difference in the front end. The grill is different and the headlights are peanut shaped. The "hood" panel above the grill opens on the 451 and does not on the 450.

The fenders are squared and angular on the 451 and more rounded on the 450. The flat black heat shield panel on the rear fits between the fenders on the 450 and continues all the way across the beck of the 451. The 450 coupe has 3 tail lights on each side. The 450 cabrio and all 451s have two tail lights. The 450 coupe has a glass roof and the 451 has a polycarbonate roof.The tridion is shaped different from the side and the 451 does not have the small window behind the tidion.

The 450 engine is 699cc turbo inter-cooled with a 6 speed trans. The 451 is 1000cc non turbo with a 5 speed trans. The 451 has a few more horse power and the 450 has a few more pounds feet of torque. The 450 has a European shifter, neutral, reverse and forward, +or-. The 451 has an American P,R,N,and Drive. The clutch and manual/automatic operation is pretty much the same.

A significant difference is service. The dealers and Mercedes ignore the 450 but any independent Mercedes mechanic can and most will work on the 450. The Star computer system they buy from Mercedes has the smart included. The parts are more of an issue but as mentioned you just have to be a little more creative. I personally do my own service and am not too fond of dealers, I would much rather deal with an independent if I have to. Also Mexico has 450 smarts, much closer for you than Canada.

I have two 450 smarts, the first one was the 61st smart converted by G&K in April 2006. The second I bought a year later and between the two of them I have about 75,000 trouble free miles.

I tend to like things a little on the unique side and there is no way I would trade my 450s for 451s, but that is just me.

Cheers, Dan

[belkin666]

see this thread:

450 vs 451

[RVGRINGO]

We're in Mexico and bought our 2007 Passion in late 2006. It is a 450 and we love it. In fact we have driven it right past Corpus Christi on a trip from Jalisco to North Carolina and back. When it comes time for service, you have a good excuse to take a vacation in Mexico and use a MB dealer there; they have the parts and sold 450s for years until the 451 came out in 2008.

[RIderInTX]

More thank you's and final decision made.

BELKIN 666, the link, 450 vs 451 was great and really helped me make a decision. DAN, thank YOU very much for letting me call you and you having the patience to answer my questions for more than an hour the other night. And thanks to JOHN H and RVGRINGO as well. There were also many others in the new member section who were very helpful as well. I put a deposit down on a 2005 450 today and will pick it up next week. I hope to continue socializing and learning on this site. Everybody is very helpful and generous with their time and advice and I'm glad to be a part of it.

Bill
Corpus Christi, TX

[John_H]

Somebody has to buy the used cars!

I hope your "new" car brings you many years of joy, given and received.