450 or 451

[RIderInTX]

Originally Posted by pmolink

I feel that it is important to be totally objective in comparisons such as this and only to use metrics which can be numerically substantiated.

Based upon my objective analysis, I have determined that the 451 is "1" better than the 450. That works out to 0.22% better.

pmolink; It is hard to argue with someone who keeps things objective, but I feel it is important to point out a small flaw in your otherwise comprehensive and accurate analysis. What happened is that you missed a critical fact found in rule 27a, para 4 of the smart rule book which states that smart cars are objectively ranked by giving the award to the vehicle with the "lowest" number. Based on that, and knowing that the number 450 is lower than 451, the end result comes out exactly opposite from what you stated. Just thought you would like to know.

Bill
450 owner

[mdfortwoguy]

Originally Posted by 24-42

Only impossible if you can't get to a Kragen, Auto Zone, Pepboys, etc, etc.

The lights on a 450 are extremely difficult to replace if you have large hands... this I know for a fact from attempting to help replace a light on one once.

"Peanut headlights" are "Projector headlights". Great lights, I have them

The 451s have projectors as well on their low beams.

[briansmart]

SuperStevie, your cdi 450's gearbox had to be rebuilt? What are your driving habits? With routine servicing, driving habits tailored to the cdi 450 (not a fast vehicle by any means. Sold as a fuel efficient vehicle) and fuel system care, this should not have been an issue. Many cdi owners on the Canadian forum and European forums I visit have never mentioned a gearbox rebuild.

[superstevie]

Originally Posted by briansmart

SuperStevie, your cdi 450's gearbox had to be rebuilt? What are your driving habits? With routine servicing, driving habits tailored to the cdi 450 (not a fast vehicle by any means. Sold as a fuel efficient vehicle) and fuel system care, this should not have been an issue. Many cdi owners on the Canadian forum and European forums I visit have never mentioned a gearbox rebuild.

You are quite right, there havent been gearbox rebuilds. Sorry for the confusion, it should have been:

has an engine that will need rebuilding every 50-60k, and a gearbox that makes the 451 'box feel smooth

What a difference a comma make!

I have a 451 CDi and a 451 71bhp Passion. I used to have a 450 600cc Mk4 Petrol Passion

[belkin666]

thanks for the geek warning superstevie.
well, 6 or two 3's. I don't care. it's 6 speeds up and 6 speeds down and it helps produce better mpg than the 451. I don't have a gap or extended pause between 3rd and 4th. As for the 451 transmission, having driven both, I prefer the 450, and the performance reviews for 451 have been bad, the trans needed an upgrade, and the upgrade effected mpg.
Like to know where you got your engine rebuild figures. If from sites like this then not very dependable. many of the people who post on these types of sites like to modify their cars, incl remapping - no wonder engine life is effected. we'll see how long the 451 engines last, and, oh yes, one more thing - the 451 plastic roof cracks.

[mdfortwoguy]

Seriously... are you digging up old posts just to look for a fight?

Originally Posted by belkin666

and the performance reviews for 451 have been bad

Well, considering there have never even been any performance tests done on the 450 in the US, this is moot. The 450 is at a disadvantage in horsepower, displacement and torque... I wouldn't be so smug if I were you.

and the upgrade effected mpg.

This hasn't been proven by either the EPA or conclusive tests by smartusa or owners.

Like to know where you got your engine rebuild figures.

FQ101 : Taking Modification to the Next Level would be one link. From one of the more respected sites in the UK.

If from sites like this then not very dependable. many of the people who post on these types of sites like to modify their cars, incl remapping - no wonder engine life is effected.

That's a load of crap and you know it. Sites like these gather owners of all types... look at smartmaniacs.co.uk et al - the majority of owners have stock vehicles.

we'll see how long the 451 engines last

Are you aware of Mitsubishi's reputation for longevity in small engines?

the 451 plastic roof cracks.

No, it does not. Crazing is not cracking - it is a surface defect in the material and has happened to a very small number of cars. By the very properties of the material the roof is made of, it cannot crack. Your glass roof can chip and crack just like any other glass windshield.

If you want to talk about roofs cracking and such, you might want to take a look at these links about the glass roof in the 450 shattering

Google

Glass roof of Smart Car - Benzworld.org - Mercedes-Benz Discussion Forum

Let me know if you would like me to find more examples of smart 450 roofs spontaneously shattering... googling doesn't take that much effort.

[Neonspinnazz]

Originally Posted by belkin666

it's 6 speeds up and 6 speeds down and it helps produce better mpg than the 451.

Actually, there have been no confirmed MPG tests in the USA for 450s but they do generally get a bit more mpg than the 451s according to OWNERS.

Not to mention that the 451 has a bit more horsepower to degrade mpg.

Originally Posted by belkin666

I don't have a gap or extended pause between 3rd and 4th. As for the 451 transmission, having driven both, I prefer the 450, and the performance reviews for 451 have been bad, the trans needed an upgrade, and the upgrade effected mpg.

Actually you do have a gap and/or extended pause, especially if your tranny has not been remapped. The car's shifting was so slow that you almost needed a calendar to see when you'll get to 2nd. Which is one of the main reasons why the made the redesign. Also your tranny is a bit more, rough when it shifts.

Originally Posted by belkin666

Like to know where you got your engine rebuild figures. If from sites like this then not very dependable. many of the people who post on these types of sites like to modify their cars, incl remapping - no wonder engine life is effected..

http://www.evilution.co.uk/669

Remapping? Come on, you know you just threw that in to spice up your arguement. We all know that the engine is not that delicate, heck it's not really delicate at all.

Originally Posted by belkin666

we'll see how long the 451 engines last, and, oh yes, one more thing - the 451 plastic roof cracks.

Several owners have already passed 50k and the car's still performing like-new and many still have un-crazed roofs.

And the roof doesn't crack, it crazes on SOME CARS. We and smart are really trying to pinpoint the cause of the crazing and the best hypothesis so far is that the company that molded the roof didn't let them cure properly and a whole bad batch got sent to smart.

It explains how several normal mileage people (Suze, etc are not crazing while some younger smarts are.

[superstevie]

Originally Posted by belkin666

thanks for the geek warning superstevie.

lol I'm not a geek! I've just been on the UK forums too long picking up in fo

Originally Posted by belkin666

well, 6 or two 3's. I don't care. it's 6 speeds up and 6 speeds down and it helps produce better mpg than the 451. I don't have a gap or extended pause between 3rd and 4th.

Its more noticable when changing down from 4th to 3rd. It was on all my roadsters (3 of them) and my fortwo, plus my boss's brabus fortwo

Originally Posted by belkin666

As for the 451 transmission, having driven both, I prefer the 450, and the performance reviews for 451 have been bad, the trans needed an upgrade, and the upgrade effected mpg.

Having driven both quite extensively, the 451 is in another league. Smoother gear changes, and a lot faster. We've had a couple of changes to the UK 'box. One where it revs lower in 5th, and one for the auto mode, where it changes up at lower revs to help auto mpg

Originally Posted by belkin666

Like to know where you got your engine rebuild figures. If from sites like this then not very dependable.

Recently, we've had this debate on smartz. So with that in mind I created these polls. Its only been running since the 17th of November, so its not exactly conclusive, but over time it will give a good indicator of rebuilds.

Poll - 450 600cc Petrol Engine Rebuild - Smartz Smart Car Forum

Poll - 450 700cc Petrol Engine Rebuild - Smartz Smart Car Forum

Originally Posted by belkin666

many of the people who post on these types of sites like to modify their cars, incl remapping - no wonder engine life is effected. we'll see how long the 451 engines last, and, oh yes, one more thing - the 451 plastic roof cracks.

Modified 450 & roadsters will increase the stain of these little engines that are already highly strung, but no more so than any other modified engine.

As for 451 roof issues, no problems reported in the UK where the car has been on sale for nearly 2 and a half years so I would suspect its a small issue on a batch of cars