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Old 10-29-2009, 04:47 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Seems to me that "manually shifting" this rig is a bit like pleasuring your self. Go right ahead, you can probably do better than any one, but think twice about bragging about it.
I guess I should just crank up the stereo with a little Journey and "Be Good to Yourself"!

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Old 11-01-2009, 08:43 AM   #32 (permalink)
 
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Location: Elk Grove, CA
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If the Divinyls wrote a song about shifting in the smart, it might go something like this:

I love my smart
I want you to love it
When I'm shiftin' down
I want you to see it
I search for 3rd
I want you to find it
I forget which gear
I want you to remind me

Chorus:
I don't want any other car
When the tacho hits 3
I touch myself
I don't want any other car
Oh no, oh no, oh no

Last edited by Smart Enuf; 11-01-2009 at 08:55 AM.. Reason: gave up on finding a working video link that I can post

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Old 11-01-2009, 09:26 AM   #33 (permalink)
 
Location: Utah
LOL @ SmartEnuf...

Has anyone considered making an aftermarket gear shift with a conventional manual (H-shaped) shift pattern? Something like:

Park...1...3...Drive

...--- Neutral ---

Rev....2...4

(Omitting 5th as a directly selectable gear since any time the driver wants 5th, the stock transmission controller almost certainly agrees. The usual disagreement is about when to downshift -- and the driver will probably have put it into 4th long before the automatic would.)

Park might also not be directly selectable, but instead be selected by the shifter being in neutral for some time plus application of the parking brake. I'm less sure of this option though -- there are a few ways it could go wrong.

Of course, translating the stick positions to the OEM shifter outputs would take a bit of computing and anticipation. (Does the driver really want Neutral or is the stick just passing through on the way to the next gear? What happens if you come to a stop while in 5th -- can the shifter detect if it's gotten out of sync with the transmission controller, and perhaps kick the lever into neutral at stop lights?)

Locking out inappropriate shifts (like trying to put it in park while moving, or shifting to reverse at 70 MPH) would be a mechanical challenge. The lockout could be a solenoid keeping the lever from moving into the wrong gear (if damage could result from the shift) or for less destructive errors ignoring the input, beeping, and kicking the stick back to neutral.
Should be possible though.

-Rusty

Last edited by Fuse 11; 11-01-2009 at 10:01 AM.. Reason: ASCII Art Iz Hard Work.

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Old 11-17-2009, 09:17 PM   #34 (permalink)
 
Location: Canada
When in auto mode ("D" mode), the computer doesn't downshift until the rpm's go down to 1500 (or unless the throttle is pressed to the floor). That is not much above idle. It can be in 5th gear at about 2000 rpm and climbing a hill and if the throttle isn't pushed to the point at which a downshift is forced then it will remain in 5th and be lugging or on the verge of lugging. Inability to accelerate without downshifting and engine vibration and noise are the symptoms. This is damaging to big end bearings exposing them to low oil flow and pressure while placing them under heavy load when the crankshaft is rotating slowly. The bearing material gradually wears, bearing clearance increases, oil pressure is reduced, bearings may seize and connecting rods may break, and the rate of damage increases until the engine requires a major overhaul - in the case of this engine that probably means a replacement and that will be when the engine is no longer warranteed.

This engine has very little torque at rpm's below 2500, and certainly below 2000 which is the level at which the shifts take place in "D" mode for most driving situations in urban conditions. Using wider throttle openings can force it to shift at higher revs but it won't maintain a specific gear when that is required since it's programmed to keep shifting upwards regardless.
Higher engine speeds reduce the liklihood of big end bearing damage from load induced knock.

There are some misunderstandings caused by the confusing programming of this transmission and by lack of knowledge and maybe experience. You cannot accelerate faster using the manual mode. In fact, it will accelerate faster in the auto mode, practically speaking, because all you need to do is to keep the throttle to the floor and it will shift at redline. That is difficult to time well in the manual mode. Also, the time it takes for each shift is exactly the same for the manual mode as it is for the auto mode since the computer is in control of declutching and reclutching, and it takes its sweet old time doing that too.

Unfortunately it is also not practical to drive the car by keeping the throttle pinned to the floor. When you don't do that, and that is virtually all the time, the computer is programmed to shift at as low an rpm as possible and to continue to shift up until it reaches 5th gear regardless of the suitability of doing so. This is to get the car into the highest gear at the lowest rpm and the widest throttle opening which is the way to achieve highest fuel mileage. Trying to defeat this programming by using wider throttle openings while accelerating only frustrates.

The programming is more suitable for the diesel engine, but not for this small gas engine. The engineers may not have gotten it right - the requirement was to program the transmission in response to a marketing priority, not drivability or engine longevity priorities. This is actually abusive to the engine.
It's possible in the coming years that these cars, driven particularly in the auto mode, could begin to exhibit bearing problems - and I hope this post will be remembered then. The only thing that may be saving matters for now is the use of high quality synthetic lubricants. That may not be enough, however. Driving in auto mode and trusting that the engineers got it right is putting your faith in something that is not defensible from a technical viewpoint. If a mechanical knock becomes noticable especially at idle when the engine is warm then the problem is beginning.

Here is some information on engine noises - Engine Noise
And rod knock - Rod Knock

To recap - to get best performance use "D" mode - to get best fuel mileage use "D" mode - to get best drivability use manual mode - to get smoothest shifting use manual mode (with effective throttle manipulation) - to keep the transmission in a suitable gear for any situation use manual mode, to assure that the engine will not be lugging use manual mode.

There might also be a misunderstanding of how the shifting is designed - it is a sequential shift, not a gate shift, and that is a good thing. Trying to change it to a gate shifter would only make the situation worse. There's nothing wrong with sequential shifting - to downshift you tap the lever or paddle any number of times required to reach the gear desired. Reverse that for upshifting. That is actually easier and faster than having to locate a shift lever into a specific gate. To get neutral all that's required is to shift the gear lever up one position to "N", and that's as easy as with any gate shifter.

To shift manually you really do need a tachometer to know what rpm the engine is operating for both up and down shifting. There is a sweet spot for effective up shifting and that is in the range of between 3000-4500 rpm. Depending on the situation you can go a little lower or higher. For downshifting you need to know what the rpm will be after the downshift so as to not over-rev or lug the engine. Keeping the rev range between 2500 to 5000 is the area that is safe and practical to use.
One other thought to mention - don't shift to 5th gear unless the road speed is at least 50 mph (80 kph) or higher. (BTW - the car will reach maximum speed in 4th gear).

Last edited by fortow; 11-17-2009 at 09:24 PM..

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Old 11-17-2009, 09:32 PM   #35 (permalink)
 
Location: Hampden, MA
Drive: smart fortwo passion coupe
Thanks for the treatsie of how much more clever you are than the people that built the car. Mine seems to be able to select an apropriate gear and downshift other than at simply 1500 rpm only. My money is on (the price of the engine in my car) they got it right.
Where did I put that shovel
karl

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Old 11-18-2009, 08:11 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Location: eastern PA
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Originally Posted by fortow View Post
When in auto mode ("D" mode), the computer doesn't downshift until the rpm's go down to 1500 (or unless the throttle is pressed to the floor).
ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. Geez this guy just won't give it up. Please stop entering your biased opinions and baffling

Folks, maybe this guy has the only car that does this or he has broken it OR HE REALLY DOES NOT KNOW HOW TO DRIVE IT. I drive my smarts everyday up and down hills (here in PA). I live on UPPER RIDGE ROAD. Guess what that means?? The downshift works GREAT on my 2 cars and everyone else I talk too. You DO NOT HAVE TO FLOOR IT. In fact on the steeper hills the shift will go down 1 gear and if needed into a second lower gear - ALL ON ITS OWN.

If anyone of you are finding difficulty in smooth shifting or downshifting (except Mr. fortwo), just try driving with the lightest of pedal for awhile. This may be different than your past cars that used a pedal/throttle to directly open the throttle plate. Easy pedal and let the car do the deciding for you. Don't get impatient. When it does the 1-2 "shortshift" (my term) you may think people will run you down from behind but they won't. As you approach a hill/upgrade just give slightly more pedal so the downshift will occur before speed could decrease. I walk the other cars up my hill everyday as they drive behind me and the Lil Star downshifts (ON ITS OWN) and climbs the hill going from 40 mph to over 50 mph.

Oh one last thing - if you like to shift on your own - GREAT enjoy it.

Last edited by fastturb; 11-18-2009 at 01:06 PM..

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Old 11-18-2009, 08:22 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Never too late to add more fuel to the fire. I've had the same experience as Karl and fasturb, and have been watching closely as this discussion progresses. Even on mild upgrades locally, the car will downshift as needed; if it hasn't downshifted that's because it doesn't need to. If the slight vibration below 2K rpm (not lugging) bothers you, as fasturb says, gently add some pedal and the car gets the message to go to a lower gear. The only issue I've had (and others have noted) is at high speed in 5th gear on very steep hills - the computer doesn't want to get out of 5th even though the car is losing speed. At that point a manual downshift is called for. For driving around town or on local roads at posted limits, the "D" mode works fine and can be modified by driver pedal input at any point. Just my .02.

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Old 11-18-2009, 08:31 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I prefer manual, but I can also confirm that D mode will down shift and hold gears on inclines as necessary. This behavior seemed to be improved after the 2.0 upgrade (e.g., holding 4th on mild inclines to maintain speed). When using cruise on the interstate at 60-65, I leave it in D so it will auto down shift to 4th on inclines.

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Old 11-18-2009, 09:21 AM   #39 (permalink)
 
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Location: Pacific Northwest
Drive: 2008 smart Passion
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Originally Posted by Karl Roth View Post
Thanks for the treatsie of how much more clever you are than the people that built the car. karl


Amen.

My car doesn't lug. It doesn't knock. It doesn't detonate. It doesn't rod or bearing knock. It shifts stupidly, but not "dangerously." It drives quite well in 5th gear at 40 MPH. I'm not smarter than the Mitsubishi engineers nor smarter than the smart engineers. I wish I were.

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Old 11-18-2009, 08:48 PM   #40 (permalink)
 
Location: Canada
I thought that comment would be misinterpreted, and it was, and other comments in my post ignored. So be it.
Yes it will downshift but not until the revs reach a low level. The 1500 level was referred to as the point at which downshifts take place with narrow throttle openings as would be found in normal urban driving.
The vibration felt at low revs is an indication that the engine is labouring and on the verge of lugging. It may downshift but my message was that it is downshifting at too low an rpm for the good of the engine.

If you folks like to drive in the auto mode then enjoy. However, it seems that you may be in denial about the shortcomings. All I've been doing is trying to bring to the discussion some information that may be missed and to bring on the message that shifting does not have to be as reported in reviews and as commented on here frequently.

The same few people same to be reacting in the same ways to my postings on this subject. The emotional reactions are telling. As I've mentioned before and as fastturb said - no matter how you shift, manual or auto mode then - "GREAT enjoy it."

If no one else would like to comment in a less emotional way and perhaps to add to my information then those who would silence me can have their way and the matter will be left as it is. There's no point tilting at windmills.

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