When I wrote this, I was anticipating but hoping not to be asked because I read it in a white paper on an intranet and subsequently got a reseach bug; but, I did not bookmark what I found. I was astounded though when I read it. (It was, however, a rather long and dry read and not done by the folks for whom I was temporarily working.)
None the less, here is a link to their sanatized diddy. It does not, however, discuss coal. There are, however, some sources cited if you increase the font size in their browser.
electric resistance heat is 100% efficient, why don't we all have it. Fox watching the hen house come to mind here. Not all electric power is generated with natural gas. At the beginning of the century the majority of automobiles in town where electric. This great step forward costs how much. To my knowledge not a single person has had to pay for a new battery pack for a hybrid yet. Have you ever owned anything with a batteries in it you didn't end up buying a new one for it. We do not have the ability to create energy. What we are able to do is transfer it. Taking the energy from the sun with photovolactics is less than 100% heat from the earth geothermal less than 100% so following the logic of the Tesla boys just no good. MY money says there figures fail to take in all the data. Thanks
karl
I saw the episode with the claim that a 10 x 10 mile area could supply 100% and Instantly thought.... BS...
Mathematically it does not work with current photovotalic cell's efficiencies, costs, DC to AC conversion, transmission line losses and costs ... The writer must have been using a very low figure for how many Giga (Tera ?) watts we use each day...and a highly optimistic figure for the output of 100 square miles of cells and completely disregarded storage, conversion, and transmission line losses
That is the problem with these type shows, they try to make a leap from the theoretical to the real world and conveniently omit fundamental facts
They also do a real poor job of accurately describing the technology and what it takes to make it work
In the case of the photovoltics...
They have a finite life span
They must be frequently cleaned
They have a predictable yield to cost ratio
They have a environmental cost to produce and transport/install
The output is DC current that must be stored
The storage costs are staggering and have a gross negative environmental and maintenance replacement cycle cost
The stored energy must be converted to AC
The AC current must be transmitted some distance
Using that shows 100 square mile analogy you would think ...OK we just need 1 sq Mile near each of 100 large cities and problem scale is solved... that is until you research how many Mega watts Chicago uses daily and how much energy you could get out of a 1 sq mile array with the sun light averages for that area...
When you look at the variables, losses, days with full sun etc etc... you must conclude that this is not a economically viable solution
If you really want to see how this is not economically sound or ever cost effective
Survey your current homes energy consumption and average it
Go on line and find the companies that offer these solutions and design a system to run your house 100% off stored sun energy
Do not forget the storage battery array, and the DC to AC converters
Do not forget the 5 to 6 year cycle to replace your storage batteries
Determine you current Kilowatt hour charges and do the math
I did all this some time back...
86 years to just break even and all my math was using constant dollars (2001 battery costs to replace in 2007, 2013 etc), and only a modest Kw-hr rate increase from historical model in my area... well the funky thing is ..in my area, electrical costs went down from competition
yes, as the originator of the thread, I think this has gone off track to quite some extreme, and I'd like to ask that any future posts pertain to the thread's original content or else we should kill the thread now.
Well ...I guess some of that venom is directed at me...
John... I take it back..seems we can not discuss a popular topic with far reaching consequence and stay on an adult level... my bad
... The original thought was all about electric smart cars and each of us in some way has added to the discussion and fundamentally kept in track with the use and creation of electricity
If you do not want to discuss the merits, upsides, down sides, and costs associated with electric cars.. then what the hell do you want to discuss? How damned cute an electric smart car might be... sheesh!
I am not a fan of current electric automobile technology. When I take into account how the batteries are manufactured and how they may subsequently be disposed of; I don't get warm fuzzies. For any automobile to be useful to me I have to be able to drive for long periods without having to stop for hours to recharge. Thus any battery operated vehicle at this point would have to be a hybrid supplemented with gasoline or diesel. I've been known to drive straight through from DFW to Palm Springs, DFW to Milwaukee and DFW to Baltimore for a few examples. I can make it to Palm Springs in apx 20 hours.
Purely battery powered vehicle would require plug in stations in the middle of the desert with current available technology. Plus it isn't just a matter of a few minutes then resume driving like with refueling. Now setting up recharging stations, lodging and such in a city would be costly. Putting such in the middle of the desert off of I-10 would probably be cost prohibitive at this point.
I'm sure there is much more that I'm leaving out. But we can't just look at alternative methods of powering vehicles. We have to look at methods that can be affordable for the masses. We also need to keep in mind big rigs. It's one thing to look for something to power individual vehicles. It's larger than that though. Trucks, buses, airplanes and other forms of transportation that currently use some form of diesel or gasoline.
Maybe a battery operated vehicle is the beginning or the answer for some. At this point I don't see it as a valid option for myself. With those I've seen I couldn't even visit family in Louisiana without stopping overnight to recharge.
I'm an auto guy and work in the industry........electric cars are a great idea and my greatest wish is they were here now, but right now the cost is absolute killer...yes, I know GM built the EV-1 ten years ago and the owners loved it and we all know who killed it, BUT, it was tiny and felt that way, it wouldn't function in really cold weather, (that's why they were all leased in AZ & CA), it didn't meet federal vehicle crash requirements (it had a waiver), the batteries had a limited lifespan, and the price, if they had been sold, would have been about $65,000 to break even.....
Yes, the Tesla is a great vehicle, it is also tiny & the battery pack alone costs $25,000 and is guaranteed for only 100k mile, and the car is $100k. A larger vehicle would need a larger, more expensive battery pack...,
So that leaves us with the Plug-in hybrid....which paradoxically, is even harder on the batteries than a full electric tesla which goes 200 miles on its full chargewith a guarantee of 500 discharges, a GM volt or the upcoming plug-in prius only go a short distance on their battery (40 miles for the volt or 8 for the prius), therefore a commuter is potentially going to cycle the batteries that many more times driving the car. If the lifecycle of the batteries is only 500 discharges, and the li-ion battery needs replacement at a cost of $1-5k, then not to many consumers are going to be real happy with their plug-in hybrid electric car which needs a new battery after 20,000 miles.......We can hardly get americans to consider diesel which only costs about $3000 more than a comparable gasoline car, how do we get them into PHEV when the cost is going to be $5-10k above a gasoline car with potential expensive battery replacement down the road?
What we need is a CHEAP, long lasting battery with no overheating issues & more expensive vehicle unless the price of gas goes through the roof or there is a mandate, god forbid. And that to me is the attraction of the Smart, its cheap, especially in pure form, and it can reduce gas usage from 30 **50% for the average consumer. No expensive batteries, no unproven technology. Keep it simple.
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