...Another factor not considered is the regenerative braking advantage HEV's have over the regular ICE car ....a definite *PLUS* for hybrids...
Interesting. I was browsing the EPA website last night, and one of the changes to the new test procedures is harsher acceleration and deceleration. It mentions that the more severe deceleration requirement has a bigger negative effect on the results for certain hybrids, because regenerative braking is only effective under very gentle deceleration.
I assume that current regenerative braking systems can only absorb energy at a fairly low rate, and if you need to slow down quickly most of the energy still has to be "wasted" as heat from the brake rotors.
This may change once Formula One gets to spend gazillions of dollars on "kinetic energy recovery systems" from 2009.
some examples of downgraded 2007 combined mileages:
Honda Civic Hybrid – from 50 to 42
Honda Civic – from 33 to 29
Honda Fit – from 35 to 31
Toyota Prius from 55 to 46
Toyota Yaris – from 37 to 32
The smart’s 41 plus doesn’t look so bad now.
WOW!
Thank you fishrdnc!!!
I was very very concerned about the smart mileage, as it seemed to get lower and lower on the estimates.
But when you see the Prius, an ELECTRIC weighted vehicle, going down to 46 from 55, and the equally heavy burdened civic hybrid going down to 42 from 50,
Smarts 41 (or maybe better!?) combo mpg looks a ok. Good. Nice. Whew, its right in there, and all gas, no batteries! Yeah, thats what we want.
Now, if they could only get it to run on reg unleaded, instead of premium only, that would be a great Christmas present.
Presently, it is premium only, but, the supervisor at the 800 phone at smart says they are still working on getting it lower, but, for now, it is premium only.
When i first heard it was premium only, I was shocked, and furious, and considered premium a certain deal breaker. I wanted heads rolling! I wanted ALL the Exec VP and above Smart people 'Fired' who had any say in going "premium' in a fuel efficient vehicle, or the whole Smart Car US operation terminated!
I've calmed down a bit, but it still irritates me. The comparisons on the 2008 ratings are a bit of relief, and encouraging, and maybe, the deal will still be a go.
But please, Mr. Smart People, be smart, and make the smart car smart. If you can get the smart required fuel below premium grade, please do it. Because every time I go to the gas station 'premium' pump, I'm going to get a sick feeling in my stomach, over and over, as long as I own this car.
I'm sorry, Mr Smart People, but, I think its smart to prefer more of my cash in my pocket, than Iran's pocket.
I own cars for 20 years or more. Thats a lot of sick feelings to come, to annoyingly look forward to.
Somewhere buried in this site is a posting that describes the octane labeling on the fuel cap or inside the fuel filler door as “95 ROM & 85 MOM.” I am assuming that was a 2006 or older 450 smart, but maybe the 2007+ 451 will be the same. I hope so.
The way we determine pump octane in the U.S. is: P.O. = (ROM + MOM)/2. So, the above would equal (average) 90 pump octane. Mid-grade 89 is only one point less and would probably do OK with normal driving and with little effect on MPG; the variable ignition timing could adjust for it. Prolonged hard use at low elevations may warrant the 90 or 91.
I was very very concerned about the smart mileage, as it seemed to get lower and lower on the estimates.
But when you see the Prius, an ELECTRIC weighted vehicle, going down to 46 from 55, and the equally heavy burdened civic hybrid going down to 42 from 50,
Smarts 41 (or maybe better!?) combo mpg looks a ok. Good. Nice. Whew, its right in there, and all gas, no batteries! Yeah, thats what we want.
Now, if they could only get it to run on reg unleaded, instead of premium only, that would be a great Christmas present.
Presently, it is premium only, but, the supervisor at the 800 phone at smart says they are still working on getting it lower, but, for now, it is premium only.
When i first heard it was premium only, I was shocked, and furious, and considered premium a certain deal breaker. I wanted heads rolling! I wanted ALL the Exec VP and above Smart people 'Fired' who had any say in going "premium' in a fuel efficient vehicle, or the whole Smart Car US operation terminated!
I've calmed down a bit, but it still irritates me. The comparisons on the 2008 ratings are a bit of relief, and encouraging, and maybe, the deal will still be a go.
But please, Mr. Smart People, be smart, and make the smart car smart. If you can get the smart required fuel below premium grade, please do it. Because every time I go to the gas station 'premium' pump, I'm going to get a sick feeling in my stomach, over and over, as long as I own this car.
I'm sorry, Mr Smart People, but, I think its smart to prefer more of my cash in my pocket, than Iran's pocket.
I own cars for 20 years or more. Thats a lot of sick feelings to come, to annoyingly look forward to.
A couple of thoughts: Apparently, you can burn lower octane gas but you'll get fewer miles per gallon. By using the premium level you'll send fewer dollars to Iran (and to oil companies). It doesn't require more oil to produce premium gas, just more refining. Secondly, and I know this is small solace, the additional cost of premium fuel, on a percentage basis, is much less now than it was in the past. When regular gas was $1.50/gal premium was $1.70, a 13% premium (no pun intended). Now, regular is around $3.00, premium about $3.25, an 8% premium. Last, I'm sure the engineers at smart aren't in cahoots with the oil companies. If they had been able to produce sufficient power with the one liter engine with regular fuel, they would have.
I guess the ground truth will be found in changing the definition. Instead of miles per gallon, one can re-do the math and calculate miles per dollar, once the data is in hand. If the numbers come out the same or nearly so, I'd go with the specified higher octane (lower emissions due less consumption, easier on the ECU).
I guess the ground truth will be found in changing the definition. Instead of miles per gallon, one can re-do the math and calculate miles per dollar, once the data is in hand. If the numbers come out the same or nearly so, I'd go with the specified higher octane (lower emissions due less consumption, easier on the ECU).
I'm sure you've seen the comparison lately comparing operating costs of an EV vs and ICE powered auto. At today's prices for electricity (approx 12 cents/kwhr), around 2-3 cents/mile is felt to be a reasonable factor. An ICE, on the other hand, with gas at an avg of $3/gal (+/- 15 cents/gal) and fuel consumption at around 25mpg, (+/- 2 mpg), the cost for fuel is 12-15 cents per mile. When comparing EV to ICE, that's quite a difference. This, ofcourse, will vary like heck depending on how each is driven...... but it offers some factor for comparison. I have not taken the time to crunch out numbers to check these factors but have seen them used repeatedly in fuel economy comparisons of EV vs ICE so I don't know how accurate they are.
A note on use of high test vs regular......many people use regular in cars designed for 91 Octane fuel thinking they are saving money. They are NOT. If one takes the time to calculate gas mileage carefully and compare one fuel to the other, they would see their mileage drop 2-5 mpg using regular in an engine that is supposed to get high test. That will nearly wipe out their savings. On the other hand, some feel that their car with the engine requiring only regular 87 octane fuel will run better on 91....they are truly wasting their money. So people will be people...depends on how much money they have in their pocket at the time to spend on gas, I guess.....
mfoster- The batteries are I believe designed to last 10 years and with the rush of technology it's unlikely many of today's hybrids will be in service past that point but I guess only time will tell. The real cost it what it takes to recycle those suckers!
mfoster- The batteries are I believe designed to last 10 years and with the rush of technology it's unlikely many of today's hybrids will be in service past that point but I guess only time will tell. The real cost it what it takes to recycle those suckers!
That is the main reason why the smart gasser or diesel is a better choice overall than any hybrid, aside from the technology being new, there is no data out there to support reliability and mantience costs down the road. I can say one thing. I don't see too many first generation Prius' around anymore, wonder where they have gone?
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but it offers some factor for comparison. I have not taken the time to crunch out numbers to check these factors but have seen them used repeatedly in fuel economy comparisons of EV vs ICE so I don't know how accurate they are.
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