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Old 02-13-2008, 06:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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91 vs 89 octane; problem??

Hi,
Can someone with technical expertise explain what would happen in the smart engine when 89 octane is used vs. the 91 octane they recommend.
I understand the basics of engine knocking, etc. but would like to know what our resident thinkers could share about this particular engine and a slightly lower octane.
Just curious, no agenda...

Hamp

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Old 02-13-2008, 06:30 PM   #2 (permalink)
 
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I'm not very technical but I can tell you that the engine has high compression and needs higher octane. The 89 octane will not harm the engine in any way but you will get decreased gas mileage and less performace. You will be filling your car more often and it will end up costing you more than if you had used 91 octane in the first place.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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The engine will retard ignition a little compared to the amount of advance running higher octane so it may lose some power and get less MPG.
Not sure if it will be any cheaper to run on premium or lower grades, I'm sure some one will try a few tanks on each grade and come up with his own MPG and MP$ results.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:44 PM   #4 (permalink)
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....and save a whopping 90 cents per fill up.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:03 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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The question isn't what the cost savings would be...
Its what would happen in this particular engine with a lower octane. So what would even an 87 octane do compared to the 91?

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Old 02-14-2008, 10:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
 
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Nothing will happen except that both MPG and performance will be reduced very slightly. Today's computerized engine control systems adjust automatically to respond to varying conditions of temperature, altitude, gasoline type and other variables. They have to do that to meet increasingly strict mileage and emission requirements.

I plan to use 89 octane in my Smart, my personal compromise between performance and cost. That's what I've used in my BMW 3-series for years, and BMW, like Smart, recommends premium.

Here in the DRW area, a very well respected and straight-talking guy named Ed Wallace hosts an excellent radio show on cars, and this question drives him up the wall. He thinks anything but regular is plain silly. It would be interesting to know what the real tradeoff is between octane and MPG but I think it would be very hard to measure under real conditions.

However, as someone pointed out, premium is about an extra buck per tank, so it won't cost much to treat your baby to the best, but it isn't going to hurt a thing if you don't.
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Old 02-14-2008, 11:15 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 02-15-2008, 08:29 AM   #8 (permalink)
 
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I agree with twice. I have a BMW 5 series and use regular in it and have for 3 years. The dealer said it would do no harm and using it I still have more than adequate acceleration and get better than epa mileage in both city and highway driving. I Wrote Bimmer Magazine about this problem and got the following response.

These were my questions:

1. Aside from the loss of performance what if any is the downside of using 87 Octane on the 530?

2. Are you aware of any information from BMW of NA on this topic?

3. May I pass your answer to others via Internet forums?

Thank you for your time,
XXXXXX

Hello XXX,


Thank you for your interest in Bimmer.

1. Most BMW produced from about 1992-on and all produced from 1994-on employ knock sensing ignition systems. Knock sensors detect detonation, aka knocking or pinging, caused by low octane gasoline, and signal the engine management computer to retard ignition timing. Retarding ignition timing reduces or eliminates the detonation. This is one reason contemporary BMW engines are able have such high compression ratios.

Retarding ignition timing will also reduce power output. The degree of power reduction depends on the degree of timing retardation.

The knock sensing system has operational parameters. You can only go so low with octane, before you exceed the operational parameters of the system and the engine will experience detonation.

The operational parameters of the knock sensing system are rolled forward as the engine matures, due to carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons.

Lower octane gasoline does not always have the same level of detergency as higher octane gasoline, although detergency is blind to octane chemically. The oil companies just tend to use better additive packages in the pricier fuel. So if you are using low octane gasoline, it would be a good idea to use a gasoline additive periodically. I use and recommend BG44K, BMW Gasoline Additive, Chevron Techron, and Red Line SI-1. The Red Line product is the most economical, because it is highly concentrated. One bottle treasts 120 gallons of fuel.

Automatic transmission BMWs running low octane gasoline will retard timing abruptly when starting out from a standing stop in Drive. This is due to the faster clutching action of an automatic transmission; the same thing happens with a manual gearbox but not abruptly unless it's a holeshot launch. Automatic drivers may perceive this as an ignition miss or hesitation, but it is just normal vehicle function with low octane fuel and an automatic transmission. This is because the engine experiences detonation the second the throttle is opened, and with an automatic the car is under power the second the throttle is opened. The ECU immediately retards timing to address the detonation. With a manual gearbox, everything happens a little more gradually.

2. No.

3. Sure.

Best regards,
Mike Miller
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I cant' post a link yet, but there is a good write up in straightdope. Just enter premium vs regular gas in google
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Old 02-19-2008, 01:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041008.html

I believe this is the site that sk8ndad referred to.

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