Diesel Smart for the US market

[Old smart]

Originally Posted by smartah

How can VW bring in a diesel in it's rabbit and smart can't bring their diesel in? I don't get it.

Size matters:
a. a smart is physically too small to practically carry the aqueous urea tank and other equipment for a "wet system,"
b. smart USA's dealer infrastructure is too small to support aqueous urea systems, and,
c. the NOx Trap "dry system" that the Jetta uses requires a minimum 2-liter engine to produce the required exhaust heat for the trap/converter. The smart engine is too small.

[chieftmc]

Originally Posted by smartdavis

... I remember the days when you couldn't drive over 55 mph...

You mean LEGALLY

[forestacademy]

Originally Posted by Smartdavis

I would not be at all surprised to see new rules and regulations limiting horsepower and acceleration on combustion engines. It's the next logical step. I remember the days when you couldn't drive over 55 mph. Here we go again.

It wouldn't be a bad thing if every car was limited to uner 100mph and acceleration limited to boost MPG.

Yeah, Smarts wont get run over as easly

[jetfixer737]

I like turbo-diesels too, and looked quite hard at the VW Jetta TDI before deciding on the Smart. I just did a local fuel cost check on "fuel buddy" and found that locally there's almost a 40 cent difference between Premium gasoline, and Diesel. Considering most Smart drivers I've spoken to are getting over the EPA 40 M.P.G. rating already, how much better will the mileage of a turbo-diesel powered Smart need to be before it becomes cost effective to buy one? Not just the difference in fuel cost, but pretty much every diesel vehicle on the market these days costs a good bit more than it's gasoline powered version.

(My dad refers to it as the "Cost/benefit factor")

[Bill Marshall]

Originally Posted by jetfixer737

I like turbo-diesels too, and looked quite hard at the VW Jetta TDI before deciding on the Smart. I just did a local fuel cost check on "fuel buddy" and found that locally there's almost a 40 cent difference between Premium gasoline, and Diesel. Considering most Smart drivers I've spoken to are getting over the EPA 40 M.P.G. rating already, how much better will the mileage of a turbo-diesel powered Smart need to be before it becomes cost effective to buy one? Not just the difference in fuel cost, but pretty much every diesel vehicle on the market these days costs a good bit more than it's gasoline powered version.

(My dad refers to it as the "Cost/benefit factor")

Don't diesel engines last longer?

In Europe, smart's diesel engines are rated at the equivalent of more than 20 mpg (US gallons) better than the gas engines (approx. 70 mpg vs 49 mpg).

[jetfixer737]

Originally Posted by Bill Marshall

Don't diesel engines last longer?

In Europe, smart's diesel engines are rated at the equivalent of more than 20 mpg (US gallons) better than the gas engines (approx. 70 mpg vs 49 mpg).

You make a good point, diesel engines do go a long way, but with the use of the good synthetic oils you can get these days (I'm a big fan of Royal Purple myself) You can get a well built gasoline engine (Mitsubishi?) to go a long way too. I must admit though, that big a difference in mileage would be tough to beat.

[Bill Marshall]

There's an article on the msn website today about cars that get gas mileage over 40 mpg - 10 of them. I think that 8 of the 10 are not available in the USA because they're diesels. Diesels are cleaner than ever, but USA has the most stringent emissions standards for diesels in the world, so car makers are reluctant to make the investment for the upgrades only to try to sell to a market that isn't already receptive to diesel engines.

It's shocking to see that the average gas mileage in Europe is over 40 mpg & in America it's barely over 20. To think that Obama is trying to get America up to 35 mpg with difficulty expected & Europe is wll beyond that right now. A big reason for the difference is diesel.

I'll get busy finding the link, so I can post it.

Edit:

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/lista...umentid=745437

[jwight]

Just to clear up any confusion (mine included) on the two diesel cars sold in the USA, the VW TDIs do not use the urea system (Bluetec) used by Mercedes:

The 2.0-liter, turbocharged, direct-injection diesel engine, which Volkswagen calls TDI, makes 140 hp and 235 lb.-ft. of torque. That makes for quick acceleration from stoplights, the automaker says. The engine meets Tier II/Bin 5 emission standards without needing the urea treatment that some other new-generation diesels will require. The Jetta’s storage catalyst reduces nitrous oxide (NOx) emissions by up to 90 percent, and the car’s engine-management system changes modes to treat NOx stored in the catalyst.

2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI Preview | J.D. Power

[Old smart]

The VWs use a dry "NOx Trap" system, a sort of catalytic converter that uses intermittent shots of raw fuel to complete the conversion process and re-generate the trap. It does take a little away from mileage as fuel is being used outside the combustion chambers. There has been a problem with NOx traps in Europe because they weren't making the EC-required 100,000 km distance while still being effective. They were wearing out early (about 60k km), and are expensive to replace. I don't know how that problem stands these days. As far as I know, the U.S. does not have such a longevity requirement.

Some of the EU problem could be with their very-low sulphur diesel oil - it is "D50" (</= 50 parts per million sulphur compounds). Sulphur contaminates the NOx trap and the trap looses its effectiveness. The new U.S.-mandated Ultra-Low Sulphur Diesel (ULSD) is "D15" (</= 15 ppm); it may make the NOx trap technology more do-able here. The EU will try to eventually go to "D10."

A NOx trap will only work with the exhaust heat generated by a 2 liter or larger engine.

N.B. VW has apparently given up on the non-CA (and other similar state) legal Touareg TDI. The '09 "Touareg 2" is a gasser only.

[brian r]

Originally Posted by forestacademy

Not sure how Hybrids will help unless we all drive in the city. At Hyway speeds they are not all theat impressive. And At true Hyway speeds they get even worse.

Last week I rode with a friend from Hartford to D.C. and back via Albany in his new Jetta TDI. He drives a lot for work and had another TDI before that. We averaged 70 mph with stops and got 53 mpg. The car was extremely comfortable and quiet, and the passing power with 236 lb/ft of torque was amazing. He told me he looked into a Prius, but found that a colleague of his with one only got 40-41 mpg on the highway driving 70-80 mph (anything less in the northeast any you'll get run over).

Originally Posted by Bill Marshall

Don't diesel engines last longer?

Yes, and at least on the VW, they have such a great reputation that they have silly resale value. My friend sold his '06 TDI for $2500 less than it cost new, and the car had 148k on the clock. I don't think a diesel smart will hold it's value like that; resale on the '08 cars is already in freefall.

So although the TDI uses more expensive fuel, it will hold it's value while getting incredible mileage (he averages almost 50mpg in 6000 miles). Also, the cost came down due to the $1300 tax credit, and there was no CT state tax (like my smart). And where dealers were marking these cars up thousands last summer, my friend got a $1800 discount from a dealer that had a dozen TDIs on his lots.

I wonder how much more a diesel smart would cost if it got here. My friend's VW was less than $21k out the door with the tax credit. My smart was a bit over $15k, and as a suburban runabout that gets 35-38 mpg it's pretty cool, but if I had to travel (or carry passengers and a big trunk full of stuff) the TDI makes a stronk case. VW's internal paperwork already shows TDI versions of the Rabbit and GTI coming this fall.