SMART wreck on Jalopnik

[Critical Thinker]

Originally Posted by MB DNA

THE Critical Thinker posts to SCOA because he has:

"a fascination with the reasoning behind people's decisions to buy this microcar they call the smart. For so many reasons, I just don't get it."

For my thinking, a rather twisted reason for not doing something more constructive with his time but it is a wonderful thing that we have freedom of speech and are allowed such a forum as SCOA. Personally I welcome a lively fact based debate with a smart basher who drives an SUV.

Bring it on!

Well, maybe in a twisted way I do find this constructive. My interest in this subject all started because of a friend who purchased and sold a smart almost entirely because of her safety fears.....irrational or not!

[Critical Thinker]

Originally Posted by Neonspinnazz

Did you even read what I typed? Last time I checked G-forces don't kill you as much as the other vehicle's bumper intruding into your car.

Yes, I read exactly what you typed. You mentioned that the smart obviously was subjected to some pretty good G forces (or something to that effect) and I replied by stating that G forces are usually what gets you in an accident. Sure, a steel bumper to the head will get you as well, but we're assuming here that there will be no intrusion into the "safety cell" of the smart.

Now I don't understand you here. To start we call the smart a "smart" because that's the company and that's the car.

Hmmm... I don't really know how to explain that one to you. I know why the car is called a smart. I wasn't questioning why everyone calls it that. Not at all. A name is a name is a name. Perhaps if you read it again you'll understand what I was saying.

Maybe I should go onto a SUV forum and find out why one would consider buying such a monstrosity of a vehicle. They provide nothing but extra space.

Maybe they provide nothing but extra space for you, but a midsize SUV fits my lifestyle perfectly. I'm a very active person who loves the outdoors. Here are some of my "fun" toys that I own: Kayak, mountain bike, snowmobile, jet ski, and of course snow skis. I also live in NY and have a winter cabin up in the mountains near Syracuse. Getting up to the cabin in the winter is all but impossible without a vehicle with a capable 4wd system and a decent amount of ground clearance. The Syracuse area is one of the top snowfall regions in the U.S.

It's not unusual for me to load up my SUV with a kayak on top, mountain bike on a hitch-mounted rack, and pulling a small trailer with the jet skis. In fact, it seems I have at least one or more of my toys on my SUV just about every day.

I'm not being defensive about my choice of owning an SUV, but rather trying to explain to you that not everybody drives an SUV without utitilizing its inherent utility. But I do own more than one vehicle, like many of you here...

[Critical Thinker]

Originally Posted by John_H

Actually, yes I do think you'd get a similar response. Have you done this kind of thing on other automotive boards?

No, but I've been a member of a Toyota forum for the last five years. We've had our share of people who join just to tell us that Toyota's quality and reliability is slipping. The vast majority of the Toyota forum members don't get defensive at all when that happens. I believe the reason is because they are secure in their belief that they are driving the most reliable brand available.

So I'd have to say that the response is completely different, but I guess you'd have to see that for yourself. I only frequent one Toyota message forum. Others may be different, I guess....

[Critical Thinker]

Originally Posted by NukleoN

You mentioned that your friend, a female, was 'afraid' to drive the smart and sold it. This is irrational fear and not a compelling case. There are females (and others) who were afraid to drive Honda Civics, or small SUV's like the CR-V and opted for gigantic SUV's that nobody can see around, and then proceed to drive as if an accident is inevitable..

Yeah, I agree with you. I honestly didn't understand why she purchased a car she considered "cute" in the first place, only to let her fear of driving the car become the reason for selling it. Believe me, I talked to her for a while about it to try and determine if there were any other reasons for her reaction. She had only minor complaints about the car (she mentioned the way the transmission shifted), but nothing that would make me think she's be so quick to sell a new car. The funny thing to me is that she purchased a new Civic and she claims to love it to death! I guess it's all about her perception.

[Critical Thinker]

Originally Posted by NukleoN

Now, please make a *specific* claim and corroborate your assertion with data about the smart. Otherwise, it's just an opinion or preference, but we should not mistake that for any real threat to data we have already.

Facts are great, but this is just a discussion. Opinions are welcomed from either side of the coin. If you're looking for facts from me, I'll most likely disappoint you. I haven't done research like Bob Diaz, so we'll just have to go with his fact-based knowledge. That said, it is easy to skew data in favor one way or the other, so please keep it fair for the sake of the discussion if you or anyone else is going to cite facts.

You're probably forgetting that there are other tiny cars around, and some people like myself actually ride motorcycles too *gasp*. Would you rail against the riding of motorcycles simply because it can be catastrophic if we're in an accident with almost any other vehicle on the road?

Oh, I'm not forgetting that there are other small cars on the roads. I see them all the time. I just spotted a tiny Suzuki vehicle that almost looked like a Yaris until I got close enough to see it was a Suzuki. These small cars seem to be popping up quite frequently these days, probably as a result of the $4/gal gas prices that we had a while back.

As for motorcycles.... I love riding them. But I've never owned one myself. Why? Simple--I just don't feel like risking my life on the roads around my house and the lack of awareness of drivers. I live in a really populated area. Maybe I'd feel different if I lived in an area with open roads and little traffic congestion. As much as I'd love to own a motorcycle, it seems that every time I seriously think about it, someone I know either gets seriously injured or killed on a motorcycle. So as adventurous as I like to consider myself, I've decided that owning a motorcycle is not a risk I'm willing to take. But that's just me. Other obviously don't feel the same way.

What is your proposal, that we not drive smarts because you're afraid we'll die? With that logic, would you also disallow someone from riding a motorcycle or splitting lanes as we do in California? Where does safety Fascism end and the rights of the individual begin?

.

I never even implied that anyone should not drive a smart. I'm not afraid that you or anyone else will die behind the wheel of a smart, or even a motorcycle, for that matter. Like others have pointed out already--people will die no matter what they drive or no matter what they are doing at any given moment. Sure, we'll all die some time...no disputing that. And don't take this the wrong way, but the more small vehicles on the roads, the better the odds for people who choose to drive larger vehicles. Personally, I just don't want to be the guy in a tiny car, unless the roads I drive are also filled with other tiny cars. Again, it's just my personal opinion of being on a level playing field.

[Critical Thinker]

Originally Posted by rfernatt

Obviously, you have some type of inferiority complex and feel the need to push others to adopt your choices and are not man/woman enough to feel comfortable with your own choices. You're wasting my time and yours. Cheers.

I disagree completely. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. If that's all you got out of this discussion, then I guess there's nothing more to say about that...

BTW, I'm not wasting my time at all.

[Critical Thinker]

Originally Posted by Bum-bling-B

Now, what I DID fail to see is CT mentioning specifically what he drove. I have a feeling he knows we could easily dig up all kinds of fatalities that are a result of his vehicle of choice.

My primary vehicle is a Toyota 4Runner. There are millions of them out there on the roads. I'm sure thousands of people have died in them. Go ahead and dig up whatever you can...it makes no difference to me because I see it as a very safe vehicle.

Want to talk rollovers? I know that's a hot topic for SUVs. Well, my 4Runner (as well as every other Toyota SUV produced since about 2003) has standard VSC (stability assist) as well as a host of other electronic nannies to help prevent rollovers. So you have to be doing something truly stupid to roll any late-model Toyota SUV.

But still, if you want to tell me how unsafe my 4Runner is, then that fine. But if so, lets then compare what would happen if my 4700 lb 4Runner hit head on with a 1700 lb smart.

BTW, that brings up another point that bothers me.... why don't they start regulating bumper heights for cars and trucks/SUVs? It seems some manufacturers are starting to standardize bumper heights voluntarily for the sake of safety, but there are no regulations for this in the U.S. If a low-slung sports car like a Corvette hits head-to-head with, say, a Hummer H2, the Corvette is likely to go right under the Hummer. There's something not right about two vehicles with bumper heights that are so mismatched.

[NukleoN]

Originally Posted by Critical Thinker

Facts are great, but this is just a discussion. Opinions are welcomed from either side of the coin. If you're looking for facts from me, I'll most likely disappoint you. I haven't done research like Bob Diaz, so we'll just have to go with his fact-based knowledge. That said, it is easy to skew data in favor one way or the other, so please keep it fair for the sake of the discussion if you or anyone else is going to cite facts.

Agreed, it's easy to skew data, but we're gonna make an honest effort to go where the facts lead and not bias them, after all, it fools only a few and makes us look bad.

Oh, I'm not forgetting that there are other small cars on the roads. I see them all the time. I just spotted a tiny Suzuki vehicle that almost looked like a Yaris until I got close enough to see it was a Suzuki. These small cars seem to be popping up quite frequently these days, probably as a result of the $4/gal gas prices that we had a while back.

And don't forget the T-Rex's and other 3-wheeled vehicles coming soon, original Minis still on the road and the odd 1st-gen CVCC or even the precursor, the Z600. I live in California, and since they are no longer giving out carpool lane decals to hybrids, people are desperate to get into the carpool lane in other ways apart from ride-sharing. Motorcycles and 3-wheelers are another legal way to harness the free-flowing carpool lane rather than inching along in commuter traffic.

As for motorcycles.... I love riding them. But I've never owned one myself. Why? Simple--I just don't feel like risking my life on the roads around my house and the lack of awareness of drivers.

The point is granted. Motorcycles are more dangerous than cars, and all things being equal, more mass will be better than less mass, granted, but see, life lived fully involves risk. I would no sooner stop riding my motorcycle or driving my smart simply because of the inept behaviour of other people. It is a valid argument to say they're a real threat, because they are, but if I were to give up what I want to do out of fear, I would have regret later and I couldn't live with myself. Risks are relative to the individual. Sometimes it just comes down to your risk/reward thought-process.

For me, the extra small risk I have in a smart compared to an H1 is worth it, because I gain a lot in MPG, fun-factor, having a car I LOVE instead of one I couldn't care less about, something which shifts people's paradigm for better or worse, a mobile world-enlarger and a garage enlarger, etc. I don't have kids, don't plan on having kids so for me the smart is not going to bite me in the arse later. Having kids often changes people's risk/reward mechanism too.....lotta times motorcycle riders about to have a kid will sell the bike and all their gear. People sell sports-cars and get bigger cars. In the wrong-application the smart will fail, because it's quite specialized, like a Miata or Z4. Not a family car. Not a (great) lumber hauler, not something you want to carry a refrigerator in. Having thought of all this beforehand though, I decided there were many ways around these limitations.

I live in a really populated area. Maybe I'd feel different if I lived in an area with open roads and little traffic congestion. As much as I'd love to own a motorcycle, it seems that every time I seriously think about it, someone I know either gets seriously injured or killed on a motorcycle.

I live in Los Angeles County and used to moto-commute 60 miles a day, lane splitting traffic every single workday, rain or shine and then more riding on the weekends. I purposely rode in the rain so as not to be cowed by a little weather, but also because my bike was my only transport (well, I had two bikes). I would be passing SUV's in the rain because people in the grip of fear were so afraid of the rain that they'd slow to a crawl. Safety has become almost Fascism with regard to threatening our rights. Children have to make play dates instead of playing in the streets, people drink bottled water whereas when I was a kid I drank straight from a garden hose, parents can't spank their kids even for the worst offense possible (I know that's a different argument) simply because the pendulum has swung so far to the other side.

I am dreading the day when some special interest group decides motorcycles are too dangerous and that they should be illegal, and manages to convince lawmakers. The slippery slope here is that where do they stop? Granted, there are cars safer than the smart, perhaps a lot safer, but is the compromise worth the safety?

I prefer to retain my rights, long as I am not hurting anyone, and make choices for myself. It's the same reason I support the right of others to smoke with reasonable limits, even though I detest the smell, it makes me sick and it's a known to cause cancer.

I choose minimalism when it comes to transportation. It makes me happy, and I see no reason to change simply because others are so fear-driven, and yet do a lot of things I think are reckless and inadvisable (like having too many kids, spending way too much time in church, giving money to suspicious conmen, etc. etc.).

So as adventurous as I like to consider myself, I've decided that owning a motorcycle is not a risk I'm willing to take. But that's just me. Other obviously don't feel the same way.

I fully support your right to ride or not ride. In a relativistic world, the smart is a good car, decently safe for its size, but one can never change the laws of physics. I love the smart, and I choose it not for one variable but the 'big' picture, so to speak.

I never even implied that anyone should not drive a smart. I'm not afraid that you or anyone else will die behind the wheel of a smart, or even a motorcycle, for that matter. Like others have pointed out already--people will die no matter what they drive or no matter what they are doing at any given moment. Sure, we'll all die some time...no disputing that. And don't take this the wrong way, but the more small vehicles on the roads, the better the odds for people who choose to drive larger vehicles. Personally, I just don't want to be the guy in a tiny car, unless the roads I drive are also filled with other tiny cars. Again, it's just my personal opinion of being on a level playing field.

Well there you have it. It's your relative view, and you have the right to that. I agree that we differ in our sense of risk/reward, and invariably people will differ. Before people argue about cars, they need to separate objective fact from subjective opinion. It seems we've agreed on the facts, and so at this point, we're sharing our opinions filtered through the lenses of our worldview and sense of risk/reward.

The smart is street-legal, my 2005 Yamaha R1 crotch-rocket is street legal, but both are different animals. The soaring feeling of freedom on a bike, or the cute and fun minimalism of a smart both make me incredibly happy, and I wouldn't have it any other way. To each his own, right?

Well met.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by Critical Thinker

....... If you're looking for facts from me, I'll most likely disappoint you. I haven't done research.......

And there we have it, folks. All the words that CT has typed comes down to these few. That would be MY opinion, of course.

[Critical Thinker]

Originally Posted by Suze

And there we have it, folks. All the words that CT has typed comes down to these few. That would be MY opinion, of course.

Hahahaha... that's great. But seriously, if you're going to quote me and cut my words off mid-sentence, then you should at least have the decency to include the general idea of the sentence. The part you cut out was the idea that Bob Diaz has obviously done a ton of research on the safety of the smart and that my own research doesn't approach his level of research. Not that I haven't done research, as you're implying by butchering my words. Play fair please....