What I find personally amazing about this nonsense is that people with 20/30 years of autmotive experience chuck all their prior knowledge because Daimler says so. The line to follow the Pied Piper forms here ->
I've fed the first 2 (only, so far) tanks of gas to my Smart in the Plus flavor. I had a problem a few years ago with my BMW Z4 Roadster where soon after starting the car, at an intersection waiting for a gap in traffic, I'd hit the accelerator and it would hesitate. This car with so much gusto would hesitate. It wasn't a problem when fully warmed up. When I had the dealer look at it, they came back with the info that BMW did not recommend the premium gasoline in the Pacific Northwest market because it did not meet their combustibility standards. Dumbfounded, I switched to Plus and no more hesitations. YAY! I was amazed.
Your mileage may vary? I talked to a fellow Smartie who asked for more info on this story I was telling about the gas. She's experienced hesitation issues and may have since switched to the "lower" grade fuel. For us folks in the Pacific Northwest Plus grade may be not so bad, ya think.
Gas engine 101:
Fuel goes in, mixes with air, spark makes fire, gas goes boom, cheap fuel leaves more carbon inside the block walls, hense depositing on pistons and rings, there is no cleaning lady inside there to keep it shinny and smooth, the carbon build up scratches the walls and then you loose compression. You loose compression you loose power, car goes slower uses more gas because you floor ir more to keep up in traffic. You'll see the black sud build up on you muffler tip, by then it's all inside your system from header to cat converter to pipe, ...and not to mention the back of your car due to the venturi effect. Then out to other vehicles, and human lungs and little defensless animals trying to cross the road minding their own bussiness and BAM!!! ran over by a blinded motorist due to the polution on the road.....errrrrrGGG. I got carried away. sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monoski
octane rating has nothing at all to do with cleanliness it is only a measure of the fuel's resistance to autoignition - igniting before the spark plug sparks.
run premium as the engine is going to run better, and in the end be more efficient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeaponte77
How can you have "ignition" before that spark fires?
Durrr!!! maybe my 28 years in auto mechanics with Mercedes Benz have been a waste of my life, I'll turn my certification in first thing on Monday, I think they are hiring at the sanitation department, there is no way I can screw that up...
I agree about the hydrogen, but it takes a lot of power to make hydrogen at a commercial level. Thats it's only downfall.
Hmmm, Maybe solar to make the hydrogen... Makes good sense.?!
<rant> If we hadn't been so namby-bamby back in the '70s we could have had nuclear power plants all over this country, producing efficient cheap electricity which could be used to produce hydrogen.</rant>
Solar would work, too and there is some really neat stuff being done with gasification of various feedstock (left over sugarcane stalks, scrap wood, anything with cellulose) that can produce hydrogen much more cheaply than the current commercial methods. Check out work being done by stock symbol EQST and associated companies.
[...] Maybe solar to make the hydrogen... Makes good sense.?!
The "father" of smart wants to make new cars...
Two decades after saving the ailing Swiss watch industry, Nicolas Hayek tells swissinfo why he is turning his attention to breathing new life into the environment.
The Swatch chairman has founded a new company, Belenos Clean Power, to research ways of harnessing solar power to produce hydrogen without emitting greenhouse gases.
Hayek believes a new generation of hydrogen-powered cars could be on the market within three years.
I'm reading this thread and looking for one logical explanation why we should ignore the manufacturers specific requirement to use premium fuel. What would smart have to gain by requiring premium fuel if durability and performance were not enhanced?
Fuel requirements
Only use premium unleaded fuel:
•The octane number (posted at the pump)
must be 91min.
To maintain the engine’s durability and
performance, premium unleaded gasoline
must be used. If premium unleaded gasoline is
not available and low octane fuel is used,
follow these precautions:
•Have the fuel tank only partially filled with
unleaded regular gasoline and fill up with
premium unleaded gasoline as soon as
possible.
•Avoid full throttle driving and abrupt
acceleration.
•Do not exceed an engine speed of 3000rpm
if the vehicle is loaded with a light load such
as two persons and no cargo.
•Do not exceed 2/3 of maximum accelerator
pedal position if the vehicle is fully loaded
or operating in mountainous terrain.
I'm reading this thread and looking for one logical explanation why we should ignore the manufacturers specific requirement to use premium fuel. What would smart have to gain by requiring premium fuel if durability and performance were not enhanced?
Fuel requirements
Only use premium unleaded fuel:
•The octane number (posted at the pump)
must be Min.
To maintain the engine’s durability and
performance, premium unleaded gasoline
must be used. If premium unleaded gasoline is
not available and low octane fuel is used,
follow these precautions:
•Have the fuel tank only partially filled with
unleaded regular gasoline and fill up with
premium unleaded gasoline as soon as
possible.
•Avoid full throttle driving and abrupt
acceleration.
•Do not exceed an engine speed of 3000rpm
if the vehicle is loaded with a light load such
as two persons and no cargo.
•Do not exceed 2/3 of maximum accelerator
pedal position if the vehicle is fully loaded
or operating in mountainous terrain.
What do they have to lose when you are footing the bill ?
There is more Truth than Poetry to: {Quote from "Old smart"}, I don't know if such marketing is as an incentive to get owners who do not need premium to spring for it anyway.
The ONLY time you use the properties of 'higher octane' is when the vacuum is low (uphill, acceleration, heavy load etc). In the 'olden days' (B.C.) (before computers) cars used a 'vacuum advance' which had the purpose of being actually a 'vacuum retard'.
Today, with computers, the range of 'advance - retard' of ignition plus computer read sensors results in an optimum command of 'what's safe and an optimum output of power without the prerequisite of higher octane fuel.
What very few people know is that the goal of higher octane fuel actually is the same as the computer retarding the spark (the spark is the trigger of the ignition) (higher octane slows the the explosion (flame-front and propagation) of the fuel-air mixture).
Higher octane is FULL TIME retardation. Computer retardation is applied only on demand and thus has a much wider range than either mechanical or octane methods.
The amount of power B.V. (by volume) derived from a lower octane fuel is higher than the amount derived from a higher octane fuel.
BTW: It is perfectly fine to coast in 'N' !
Shift back into gear for any mild braking. The Smart is also 'Smart' enough to NOT engage the incorrect gear if that gear is out of range for the speed of the car at that moment. You can use downshifting to greatly extend the longevity of the brakes again with the safety of the computer not allowing the engagement of an 'out of range' selection.
Donald - thanks for a very thorough reply. While I agree with your statements regarding the goal of using 91 vs. 87 octane fuel, I believe smart (MB), and Penske had a lot to loose by specifying premium. The press has been universally negative on the contradiction between economy car and premium fuel, and it is always listed as a negative in articles comparing the smart and other small economy cars.
I can't imagine Penske and Schembri thinking it wouldn't cause a PR nightmare, especially if smart engineers were telling them it made zero difference in the performance of the car. It's not logical.
My logic tells me to bet $50 each year that premium fuel is having a positive effect.
The tree huggers are trying to save the world and at the same time are starving children because corn is being used for fuel not food.
Dude, it doesn't have anything to do with tree huggers! It has everything to do with politics and lobbyists in the corn belt. "Tree huggers" know the scheme is bogus! <takes a bow>
A post of mine from another thread:
Some quotes from a USA Today article, Why use premium gas when regular will do?
When fuel's cheap, motorists are willing to pay 20 cents or so more for premium. But as gas prices sneak back up, the mental wrangle begins anew over whether it's OK to burn cheaper, regular-grade gas.
The answer almost always is yes. "I personally use regular even though my owner's manual says you'll get better performance with premium," says Lewis Gibbs, consulting engineer and 45-year veteran at Chevron oil company. He's chairman of Technical Committee 7 on Fuels, part of the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) Fuels & Lubricants Council. Gibbs knows gas. "My wife runs midgrade (89 octane) in her car, and it's a turbocharged engine" meant for 91-octane premium, he says.
"I go back and forth, and I'm hard-pressed to notice" whether there's regular or premium in the tank, says Jeff Jetter, principal chemist at Honda Research and Development Americas. He drives an Acura designed for premium.
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors. Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.
All Porsche engines are designed for premium, too, but it's not available everywhere. "Our cars must be able to drive all over the world, and so we are able to run on regular," says Jakob Neusser, director of powertrain development at Porsche's research and development center in Weissach, Germany. "You don't have to feel that a mechanical problem or anything else will happen" using regular gas, even in the highest-performance, regular-production Porsches.
And more:
Again, from the NY Times article, "So I checked in with Dave (Schembri)again. He admitted that this was the case, though he also said“you could use regular gas — there’s no damage to the car.”"
A few thoughts:
This should put an end to the debate of whether the engine will be damaged, but I doubt it will.
If you live in fear that the dealer will do an octane analysis of the fuel in your tank when you take the car in for service, then, well, you live in fear. I doubt it's ever happened at any dealer for any car. If your engine quits and they find diesel in the tank, that's a different story.
If you believe the performance or mileage will be better with higher octane gas, knock yourself out. Yes, it's not much money over the course of a year, so go for it. Personally, I think it's kind of like buying bottled tap water. But that's just me.
I don't believe I've ever put the throttle all the way to the floor in the 2,000 miles I've driven this car. My car's not supercharged or turbocharged, and personally I believe it's not possible to "lug the engine" driving in auto or manual in such a way that the knock sensors will not do their job.
Not being an internal combustion engineer or a fuels chemist or director of powertrain development at Porsche, I'll just take their word for it that all is well using regular gas.
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too funny, Mike.........
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