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Old 10-25-2009, 08:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Roger That Jetfuel,

But how do you know when your going to encounter harsh conditions?
Could a bunch of SMARTS running thru all the leaf chaff in Wisconsin be considered harsh? Would road construction sometimes be extremely dusty? I could go on but I'll take factory style for $200.00.

Barney O..... seen 1st hand results on engine teardowns.Not pretty!

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Old 10-25-2009, 08:28 PM   #22 (permalink)
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...I too will take the OEM for 200 Alex...at least in the bride's car...she drives through the construction of Indy 465 loop and it's not only the filter but everything under the engine cover...
...the fine dirt and dust and grime if not taken care off at general intervals will create problems if allowed to turn to "mud" ...

jetfuel...I'll take high pressure hose for 400 Alex...
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Old 10-25-2009, 10:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeWave View Post
As you know, I have one as well. They're in all my cars. Not filtering well is a bunch of rubbish. K&N has a million mile warranty.. and will replace your engine if their filter is the cause of it's failure. It breathes better, hence better response and mileage. Filtering is not sacraficed. my brother has had the same one on his car since new. 275,000 miles. Original engine. I'll let you drive mine if you want to see the difference...

Oh boy... K&N has certainly done a good marketing job to gullible "enthusiasts".
There's been so much written about K&N filters that to repeat too much of it here would be a waste of time. It should just be pointed out that there's "no free lunch" - you don't get good or better filtering when you use a less restrictive filter. Being less restrictive means that if air can pass more freely then the hole size in the filter is larger and larger particulate matter also passes through.
Modern intake systems are designed very efficiently. In many cars even leaving the filter out completely will not result in more power. Besides, to get more power you also need to make other modifications to the engine and exhaust system.
What some people may be feeling is throttle response which is being confused with increased power. However, there is a large degree of placebo effect taking place making people believe something that they want to happen.

That "million mile warranty" is for the filter itself, not the engine. Filter manufacturers don't warranty engines, they warranty their own product - filters. K&N is known for slick and misleading advertising.
However, here are the precise words used by K&N related to their warranty.
"K&N O/E Replacement Air Filters and Air Intake Systems purchased from Authorized Dealers are backed by a Million Mile Limited Warranty when used primarily on paved roads and on vehicles for which they were designed. If one of these products ever fails to provide complete satisfaction, K&N will replace it."
In respect to warrantying any engine damage resulting from the use of defective K&N filters they state - "This includes reasonable vehicle repair costs, sensor replacements, car rental fees or other incidental expenses directly related to an engine problem caused by the failure of a K&N product." The wear that takes place occurs over a long period of time and mileage and may not be evident during the vehicle warranty period. Additionally, there will be no catastrophic damage such that a warranty will be in effect. This is part of the slick advertising that K&N engages in. People are reacting to K&N's policy as to mean that their filters are as good as OEM filters and will do no damage - that is patently untrue.


I used to use K&N filters in my motorcycles. When I used one in a GoldWing I noticed a layer of fine dust in the plenum chamber where there had never been that phenomenon before. That area is after filtration. Dust, dirt, does get through those oil impregnated gauze filters. They were originally designed for off road use where filters would be exposed to water and mud as well as thick dust. Paper filters would disintegrate under those conditions - the oiled gauze filters don't and they continue to at least filter even when caked with dirt and mud. Off-road motorcycle racing was the type of use I had with them originally.
K&N products are well constructed and are excellent when used for the right purposes. Using these filters in production cars driven on public roads is not an appropriate application for these oiled gauze filters.

Here is an excellent independent test of air filters. You can judge for yourself how the K&N faired. Note the commentary by Arlen Spicer.
ISO 5011 Duramax Air Filter Test Report

Last edited by fortow; 10-25-2009 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:37 AM   #24 (permalink)
 
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... still awaiting a Used Oil Analysis that demonstrates any negative effect of (e.g.) K&N air filter vs. OEM ...
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Old 10-26-2009, 02:33 AM   #25 (permalink)
 
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What about the story of the fellow and his truck.. used a KN since it was new. Made and past the million miles of the warranty and they gave him a new truck... Christmas Comes Early for Million Mile Truck Driver Carl Judice
A million miles on an original engine? I'd say that's good...

To add my interpretation of the engine damage warranty...
Quote:
Unlike many companies, our warranty for O/E replacement air filters and intake systems does extend beyond the replacement of a defective K&N part.
For the original purchaser of the product, our warranty covers any engine damage or related costs incurred as a direct result of the use of a properly installed and maintained K&N O/E replacement air filter or intake system on the specific vehicle for which the product was designed to be used by K&N.
I interpreted failure as.. well a failure to filter properly. So if you're still using their filter, and your engine is damaged because of the KN while it's properly maintained and installed, they'll cover repair charges...

Elsewhere:
Quote:
We also warrant that when used properly, these products will not cause engine damage and will not result in a vehicle warranty denial.
Again, warrantied against engine damage. And if your car is still under warranty, and the dealer denies it, then KN will cover it. ALthough I do understand the point that damage from poor filtration won't show up immediately within such a time. That's what the million mile warranty is for. I'll just keep it on there til the engine fails from poor air filtration and get a new engine..
And even if mileage doesn't matter.. again..my brother's 4 banger with 275k on it and no smoke is pretty impressive for me to keep it.
As for the MAF sensors,
Quote:
Out of the millions of air filters we sell, we only receive a handful of consumer complaints each month that a dealership or service provider has blamed a vehicle sensor repair on our product....
As a result of our standing up for consumer rights and providing assistance to resolve a disagreement, we have had over 100 actual sensors sent to us by dealerships who claimed our product had caused them to fail. Microscopic, electronic and chemical testing revealed that none of the sensors were contaminated by K&N oil (K&N Detailed MAF Sensor Test Results). What is perhaps the single biggest clue to what is going on is that over 50% of these sensors were not broken in the first place for any reason....
As for the dust on the other side of the intake.. I remember reading about it and checking it for myself. after 75k miles with it on my impala, the tube looked pretty darn clean after a long finger swipe.
And yes, it was all on mostly paved roads.
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Old 10-26-2009, 11:24 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Consider This

The K&N filter is a seviceable type filter,that means it needs to be cleaned periodically and reoiled. Ok, do you have a partswasher or a spray can of brakeclean or some other product to rinse the filter out? Now the process of reoiling and having the proper supplies to accomplish this. I don't know about you but the expense and hassle to keep this kind of filter maintained would not be inviting to me?
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Old 10-26-2009, 11:43 AM   #27 (permalink)
 
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The K&N service kit works fine,just spray on the cleaner (liquid soap) after brushing off the heavier dirt,let it work for about 10 min. then rinse out from the inside then let dry.After it is dry, spray on the oil (lightly) let it drain off if sprayed on too heavy then reinstall.If I need to use the car before it is dry I can put in the original paper filter until it is dry, but I can really tell the difference.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:52 PM   #28 (permalink)
 
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These smart forums are a little immature in that this type of topic has not been going on for long. The discussion is still based on misleading information and K&N advertising. If people are intent on using a product then it takes considerable discussion and information and irrefutable evidence to initiate a change of attitude.
I thought that it would be enough to add to the discourse with a little basic information and a reliable and long standing independent testing of filters. It will take more obviously.

Here are a few more references for reading from reliable independent sources that can provide more data points for someone trying to make a decision filters -
Air Filter Filtration Test

Air Filter Flow Testing

Here also is a link to only one thread discussing K&N air filters at Miata.net. There are knowledgable and enthusiastic posters contributing to that thread. It covers much of anything that would be discussed here and might avoid having to "invent the wheel" all over again re this topic. The K&N debate had been ongoing for years at Miata.net. People have gradually been less influenced by advertising rhetoric and presumptions. Be careful to not jump to conclusions until you read the claims and refutations as with anything -don't stop reading at a point that you agree with. Intelligent decisions can't be made with inadequate information.
Here it is - K&N report - MX-5 Miata Forum

As I mentioned in the other post - K&N filters are well made and work well for appropriate applications. They are not doing what people believe when installing them in place of OEM paper filters for road-going vehicles. This is a penchant for car enthusiasts who are under the assumption that these filters are providing more power, and part of that illusion is due to the additional intake noise they produce. There's an immature link between noise and power that really does not exist.
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Old 10-26-2009, 12:58 PM   #29 (permalink)
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So the panty hose over the throttle body approach is not a good idea?
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Old 10-26-2009, 01:09 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I don't understand the point of this thread -- I'm totally ignant in these matters. Is a different AF supposed to improve the life of the car or increase its mileage (or both)? If so, I'd be interested.

Currently I'm getting well over 50 mpg highway, and the car's driving great despite hitting mile # 59,000 on the odo this afternoon.

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