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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-08-2019, 10:01 PM Thread Starter
 
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HP/Torque Conversation (Scan Gage ll)

The first question I have makes all the difference in what this thread will be.

So the "Scan Gage ll" has an HPR reading. I believe this to be a monitor on horsepower being used a a given time. Question is , is that the case? and what am I really looking at when with this monitoring mode?
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-10-2019, 05:46 AM Thread Starter
 
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Crickets ..... so I'll talk to myself.

So 90 percent of my driving according to Scan Gauge ll occurs under 2,500 rpm and under 30 horse power. Last week I say 40 HPR on one on ramp sprint to the highway. So since I have no trouble running with any public highway traffic the car is plenty "fast" enough. Regular 90 - 95 miles per hour runs are p fast enough for me. As far as quick I would not say my Smart is quick at all, as quick in my mind involves some tire spinning ability lol. For the Smart that becomes a transmission and gearing conversation about a tall first gear and computer related restrictions and I am not ready for that yet. So Zippy is what I feel the car is and its is that Zippiness I want to concentrate on. That being said and according to Scan Gauge ll low RMP range is where I spend most of my driving life so how to get more punch in to this under 3,000 rpm range. is what I will be focused on. When I am in the city I leave the car 3rd gear and Zip around like a little beast lol. So thoughts from the Low RPM sector.
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-10-2019, 09:17 PM
 
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Sorry for the crickets.... had i been on yesterday i wouldn't have let them out.

Anyway.....

Yes, the HPR readout on the ScanGauge is for the current horsepower use, although it's solely based on the specifications of the engine of the car it's connected to when you set up the scangauge. But there's a good chance that it's pretty accurate, too.

As far as thoughts on low RPM power.... from a 451, pretty sure the only way you'd get that without the already mentioned transmission modifications (are they even a thing for a ForTwo? Have people actually done that?), is by turbocharging it. Assuming you have a 451, based on your pic, according to the specs you don't hit peak horsepower until about 5,800 RPM's or peak torque til about 4,500. Compare that to a 453 which has a .9L turbo, and it doesn't hit peak horsepower until a bit higher than that.... 6,200 RPM's (probably due to the ever so slightly smaller engine), but its peak torque hits at about 2,500 RPM's.

I'm not the MOST knowledgeable on the subject.... so hopefully someone else comes around to keep the crickets at bay.... but basically as far as i'm aware, having some sort of forced induction system on a car, be it a turbo- or supercharger, is the BIGGEST way to see a drastic bump in low RPM performance. Also probably why the 451 is only rated for 68 lb-ft of torque, while the 453 is rated for 100 lb-ft.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 12:46 AM
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The little 3 cylinder engine in our Fortwo's are 999cc just under a liter. That's roughly 60 cubic inches. At the peak horsepower RPM your engine is pulling about 25.75 pounds of car weight for every horsepower the engine makes and that is in theory. Actual horsepower for motivating the car around is actually much less. You lose power because the engine is spinning the water pump which is not all that much because the pump impeller is small, but you lose a lot due to the alternator. The alternator is rated at 90 amps. The fortwo has a lot of power draw just in normal operation and it is a lot because of the car design. The ECU and all the modules require a small amount of watts to operate just like any normal newer car with Canbus, but our draw is much more because we are running an electric vacuum pump for the power brakes. The clutch actuator is a fairly healthy draw as well as the 2 shift motors are. Then add the electric cooling fan in operation as well as all the lights, wipers blower motor for the heater/AC, rear window defroster, heated seats, fuel pump, etc,... you can see the electrical demands are pretty intense for us in top of having to charge the 12 volt battery. The alternator can by design power the majority of the electrical draw at idle. So there goes a chunk of horsepower during low RPM operation. Then add the AC compressor and there goes another chunk of power. So out of that 70 horsepower we are losing some of it right off the bat.

In relation to engine size, a Harley Davidson motorcycle twin cylinder has more horsepower and displacement than we do(other the 880). In the heat and extreme conditions it has to operate in, that little Mitsubishi 3 cylinder does a remarkable job for the task it is asked to do. Add a person or two and groceries and all the normal stuff we like to haul around like a few tools and you have even more weight. It changes my performance to have a passenger onboard. When the outside temperature soars into the 90's we get even less power. I added much larger tires and sometimes tow a trailer loaded with music equipment and it does an admirable job at that but it will never be a racer.

There are little things that can be done to help increase volumetric efficiency to help low end horsepower but nothing short of adding as turbo will make a huge difference. The easiest would be an aftermarket exhaust and that is probably the most common mod to pick up 3 or 4 horsepower. Some buy a "cold air intake" and swear by it, but it seems the stock air box with a K&N filter inside is pretty good. Now if you wish to go deeper into the mods for power you will need to do multiple things together in order to gain the most bang for your buck. Higher lift cams helps low end torque. I don't know if there is an aftermarket variable valve timing unit available to change the cam intake valve timing curve or not, but I have never ran across one. You could buy slightly larger fuel injectors but you would have to have the ECU remapped because with the additional fuel you would need the ignition timing curve modified. You could port and polish the intake and exhaust runners and match the ports to the gasket. Copper spark plugs and hotter ignition coils would also help but not drastically.

Mitsubishi did a pretty good job of wringing horsepower out of their little 3 cylinder for the displacement that it is. You can pour a lot of money into the engine for more power but a turbo and a remap is the most cost effective, but a complete turbo kit is around $3,000 at Smart Madness. Even if you could boost the horsepower and torque you still have a slow shifting transmission that is only rated to handle a few more horsepower than 70 before it would fail. Aftermarket speed parts are virtually non existent especially in the US. The UK has a lot more options and tuning shops because there are many more Fortwos over there for more years than us.

A few have opted to shoehorn in a 4 cylinder transplant or a Haybusa. But that takes lots of mods and there goes your traction control and ABS because the Haybusa uses a chain drive solid rear axle so the computer couldn't activate either rear brake independently. You would end up with a check engine light on all the time, because the ECU is so sensitive to misfires and the slightest mods. I have been unable to find a tuner available to make adjustments on the fly. Just not enough Smarts around to make it cost effective for a manufacturer to develop aftermarket equipment to help us out on the power department. And with Smart dying a slow agonizing death it is fast becoming a dead horse and nobody hates that anymore than I do. I love my Fortwo more than any car I have ever owned and no one is more sad than I over that. I think 110 or 120 horsepower would make the Fortwo fly but the traction control and systems would have to be modified to allow the extra power to be utilized without stability control kicking in and stifling the extra horsepower with limp mode. You would end up completely disabling stability control. I wish there was an easier way but the opportunity to is quickly fading and the crickets have stopped chirping. We are fast learning how Edsel owners and vintage Volkswagen Beetle owners felt and unfortunately I came late to the party too. DCO
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 06:33 AM Thread Starter
 
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[quote=DreamCarOwner;1672850]The little 3 cylinder engine in our Fortwo's are 999cc just under a liter. That's roughly 60 cubic inches. At the peak horsepower RPM your engine is pulling about 25.75 pounds of car weight for every horsepower the engine makes and that is in theory. DCO[/quote

1. So the electrical draw is high. Figure out how to get some things off grid similar to an RV.

2. "You could port and polish the intake and exhaust runners and match the ports to the gasket. Copper spark plugs and hotter ignition coils would also help but not drastically" ECU remaps, but for expense, are common enough.

3. I too have larger tires so in essence taller gears...... for the "zippyness" speak of the transmission gearing would seem to be a untapped little after market availability path. In this context, Being a racer depends on who you are racing so for now lets just think other Smarts. Make the the zippyness Smart with out a drained bank account and total re-engineering.

4. We know that Brabus with their resources took the 451 up to 101 hp, with all on board controls intact. The 453 is at 125 HP and I suspect that has as much to do with the newer Transmission as everything else.

I understand all you have you have said, your Benjamin Franklin channeled style of teaching is informative, easy to follow and not condescending. Fully appreciated, and it lead me to the same hot rodder place as always. In a "the more things change the more they stay the same' frame of mind.

More air, better fuel burn, less weight, we can check those boxes pretty quick.

Tranny gearing and clutch related items. Limited aftermarket help and less over all trial and error collective knowledge out there.
But we know that is a bottle neck. We have a good deal of UK members who could have insight. So UK members we are asking for transmission tuning knowledge.

Realistic expectations management............ Screw that lol my car is perfect if I had realistic expectations I would have left it alone a long time ago lol. Just like tuning carbs you get the air fuel screws just right car purring and firing off just right, and what do you do... give it one more little turn and curse yourself for hours trying to get the right mix back again lol.

As set up with 205/40 17 tires do I now have a very tall first gear.

Last edited by twcom; 08-11-2019 at 07:48 AM.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by twcom View Post
...but not drastically.
smart’s 3-cylinder engine simply does not lend itself to throwing cubic dollars at it to “go fast” unless you want to add a hair dryer...
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 04:48 PM Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by MB DNA View Post
smart’s 3-cylinder engine simply does not lend itself to throwing cubic dollars at it to “go fast” unless you want to add a hair dryer...
I will for sure get a turbo Smart 451 in the twcom Stable, and expect that to be just as fun and I would also expect to call that one quick. Also my current Smart will remain on a poor mans dollar budget. So past tried and true low dollar shade tree hot rodder tweaks are the route it will be going. Remember at this point my $3,900 Smart (on a smooth Surface) is a really nice comfortable road car and will run at 95 mph with out any struggle get a little going up hill shift in down to forth and don't miss a beat. So just trying to fully understand the car and applying some of the inexpensive shade tree tweaks that have endured the test of time just to get a little more than what you have is the prize.

Coil Packs and spark plug choices same as yellow Accel wires and auto light split fire plugs. lol

Cold air intakes similar to high stack air filters and ram air set ups. another lol

Cherry bombs and Flow Master mufflers any one.......

Now lets say ....I'm done with that..

How do we get to the 4.10 gear change equivalent............. ?
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-11-2019, 11:50 PM
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A turbo makes a big difference in a Fortwo. I have had the experience of getting to ride in JETFUEL'S turbo Brabus that was originally turbo'd by Barney-O. I also got to ride in JSENKA'S turbo'd "Apple crate". It too was turbo'd by Barney-O. I can attest first hand both those cars are fast. My Fortwo "Max" is totally stock but is a very healthy little runner as I keep it in tip top shape. JSENKA and I pulled onto the interstate with me being behind him. He kicked the Apple Crate down and he took off and left me very quickly. I never had a hope of catching up until he let off the throttle and allowed me to do so. So do I want a turbo? Yes I do. But around $3,000 is a lot of money for a turbo kit. When the entire car is probably only worth around $3,000 it's really hard to justify that kind of cash. It doesn't make any sense investment wise to outlay that much money.

With Smart virtually gone from the US, parts will become scarce. With 51,000 miles on the odometer I know that a turbo would wear heavily on the engine over time. So I keep wanting one, yet I keep talking myself out of it because I want my Fortwo to last as long as it can. Max was my daily driver for a while but the wife and I have other vehicles so it is a play toy for me. Without a Star computer and with the last surviving dealership close to me is many miles away, so I hate to deviate a lot from stock. I am a mechanic but it's just me and the Smart. Info and advice is getting more and more scarce. When I joined the forum there were more people on here that too were mechanics and people who still did lots of mods, but most of them I got advice from when I started must be gone from the forum because you never hear from them on here anymore. So I study and gather info from the internet and the MB WIS program and keep the Smart car dream alive as best I can. I know it's only gonna get worse for us. I guess I should buy a wrecked one or two and hide them out behind my house for parts. I wish I hadn't waited so long to get in the Smart car craze, but now it's getting too late. DCO
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 08:19 AM Thread Starter
 
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Yes I would not mod my current Smart to a turbo (I want to tweak the car not re engineer it). While it is true that time will march on and more and more Smarts will fail and fall off the path. Some will be Scrapped, some will become donors. some will become the barn finds of the future. At 59 years old I would like to be around a lot more years but will gladly accept what what God gives. With 1962 MGB parts still available, I do not think Smart Fortwo 451 parts will become extinct before I do. Tougher to track down, maybe. more expensive, I'm sure. I will grab a few known trouble parts for safe keeping along the way like a clutch actuator, at 175.00 price point, I would horde them until needed. But at this time I intend to have my Smart as long as I can hold on to it and keep it going.

I will get a turbo as a true just because buy at a price point $1,500 and the time has to be right.

Here is my new inspiration.

To the best of my ability My Smart must be preserved to look and run as good as this 2002 Brabus 1st Edition.



https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/A...edition/175080
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 02:08 PM
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I'm not at all worried about parts shortages. The parts market for 450s is still so saturated that many/most parts are extremely affordable. That model first started production over 20 years ago and ended production 12 years ago. If I lived in Canada or the EU, I'd even have dealership support. With 451s only having recently been taken out of production and 453s still in production, it should be a very long time before ICE parts ever become a real problem, if not indefinitely. ED/EQ related parts I'm not so sure.

I'm only not certain because I'm not sure what the Chinese partnership for the smart brand means for future parts availability. I see no reason to do anything different, but at this point we shouldn't be surprised if MB cuts off parts, too.
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