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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all, I'm thinking heavily on putting a Carlsson exhaust and a dekat downpipe on my 2016 Fortwo. While the exhaust is removed I can't imagine not freeing things up with a catless downpipe. My question first is: has anyone here ran a dekat downpipe on a 453? If so what 02 sensor "fix" works reliably without any trouble codes? I assume there are people doing these mods successfully somewhere. I'd also assume the biggest gains in the exhaust region would come from removing the restriction of a cat. Is it even worth it on these cars to install a nice exhaust with a cat still in place...from a performance standpoint that is? Obviously a proper tune would be nice to finish off said mods but I'm unaware if anyone writes custom mod specific ecu tunes for these. I keep seeing the blanket performance tunes and piggyback boxes but have yet to read about any custom tailored tunes for the 453. I'm only inquiring to learn more on these Smarts. I've had my share of modding and running custom tunes from others on other vehicles, but never played with a Smart until now. I'm not expecting miracles or anything. I'm just curious what's out there, what my options are, and what is working for people in these regards?
 

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2016 Smart Fortwo Pure, silver and black, tinkering new mods now.
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Nobody running a catless downpipe on a 453?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
The oem exhaust is so short, I doubt you would gain anything more than a lot of noise
I don't expect enormous gains but I would expect at least some responsiveness from freeing up the exhaust and letting the turbo spool more efficiently. I also am not looking to be super loud either. Fron what I've read the Carlsson is supposed to have a fairly tame exhaust note. I mean, they pass Euro spec right? I was told they weren't very loud. Again I'm here to learn fron those that have more experience with these cars then I do. I appreciate the help man.
 

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I don't expect enormous gains but I would expect at least some responsiveness from freeing up the exhaust and letting the turbo spool more efficiently. I also am not looking to be super loud either. Fron what I've read the Carlsson is supposed to have a fairly tame exhaust note. I mean, they pass Euro spec right? I was told they weren't very loud. Again I'm here to learn fron those that have more experience with these cars then I do. I appreciate the help man.
I won't lie, I don't have a 453 so I can't really say for sure whether there will be any gains or not, but I'm my experience with other turbo cars in the past, removing the cats didn't meet any gains detectable by my butt dyno. It did make the car a lot more obnoxious and unpleasant to drive.
The muffler might be pretty tame, but removing the cats won't be as tame. I drove a non turbo 451 with no cats and could barely hear the music. I'm glad I did drive it though, because that changed my mind and I didn't decat my own 451.
What I'm saying is, if you daily it, don't mess with the kittens
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
I won't lie, I don't have a 453 so I can't really say for sure whether there will be any gains or not, but I'm my experience with other turbo cars in the past, removing the cats didn't meet any gains detectable by my butt dyno. It did make the car a lot more obnoxious and unpleasant to drive.
The muffler might be pretty tame, but removing the cats won't be as tame. I drove a non turbo 451 with no cats and could barely hear the music. I'm glad I did drive it though, because that changed my mind and I didn't decat my own 451.
What I'm saying is, if you daily it, don't mess with the kittens
Yeah that makes sense. I've removed cats on older trucks with stock mufflers and they opened up a bit of sound but it was minimal with a stock style muffler. Cats were rotted out and welded some tubing in place. They didn't have a downstream 02. Anyway, how about the high flow 200nit cats? I just hate to have it all apart and not do it, only to later find that I wish I would have. I guess I should make a few phone calls out to the UK where people are still steadily tinkering with the 453. I'm not dead set on removing the cats. I just want to know before I have it all apart. Raggazon claims 5-6 horse alone with their "high flow" 200 nit cat. But again that's all just a manufacturer claim...who knows. Yes I do daily this car. For now it's my main transpo. I am in the process of upgrading the sound system and am piecing together a parts list for a few bolt on "performance" parts. Nothing extravagant. I'd like to keep it reliable. May I ask what exhaust/muffler you were running with your 451 when you removed the cats?

Edit, it wasn't your car but do you know what muffler that 451 was running?
 

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Yeah that makes sense. I've removed cats on older trucks with stock mufflers and they opened up a bit of sound but it was minimal with a stock style muffler. Cats were rotted out and welded some tubing in place. They didn't have a downstream 02. Anyway, how about the high flow 200nit cats? I just hate to have it all apart and not do it, only to later find that I wish I would have. I guess I should make a few phone calls out to the UK where people are still steadily tinkering with the 453. I'm not dead set on removing the cats. I just want to know before I have it all apart. Raggazon claims 5-6 horse alone with their "high flow" 200 nit cat. But again that's all just a manufacturer claim...who knows. Yes I do daily this car. For now it's my main transpo. I am in the process of upgrading the sound system and am piecing together a parts list for a few bolt on "performance" parts. Nothing extravagant. I'd like to keep it reliable. May I ask what exhaust/muffler you were running with your 451 when you removed the cats?

Edit, it wasn't your car but do you know what muffler that 451 was running?
Tbh, 5-6 hp that's a difference you'll see on the dyno while doing 2 runs back to back usually.
The 451 with no cats that I drove, belonged to a friend, in the last 5 years he's been through 3 mufflers, and recently went back to stock, for some reason, and I've heard it from other people, pretty much every other aftermarket muffler for the 451 rusts out in 2 years.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Tbh, 5-6 hp that's a difference you'll see on the dyno while doing 2 runs back to back usually.
The 451 with no cats that I drove, belonged to a friend, in the last 5 years he's been through 3 mufflers, and recently went back to stock, for some reason, and I've heard it from other people, pretty much every other aftermarket muffler for the 451 rusts out in 2 years.
Right, you must take manufactures claims with spoonfulls of salt. Especially when HP or performance is being touted. I spent some years Dyno tuning an 01 Ford Lightning I used to have. It's always a toss up and very few parts do much of anything unless said part was a bottleneck, even still they did little unless properly supported and tuned for specifically. Also for some reason I thought the Carlsson exhaust was stainless steel but I'm not seeing that listed. Maybe it was the Ragasson. Stainless was also a big selling point for me.
 

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Right, you must take manufactures claims with spoonfulls of salt. Especially when HP or performance is being touted. I spent some years Dyno tuning an 01 Ford Lightning I used to have. It's always a toss up and very few parts do much of anything unless said part was a bottleneck, even still they did little unless properly supported and tuned for specifically. Also for some reason I thought the Carlsson exhaust was stainless steel but I'm not seeing that listed. Maybe it was the Ragasson. Stainless was also a big selling point for me.
I remember watching a video I think by engine masters in YouTube, and they tested different exhaust situations. They basically did a dyno pull on a pretty sweet v8, then with a sledgehammer proceeded to make some pretty big dents in the headers, to test restrictions, and they basically found no difference. That of course was an na motor, so maybe on a turbo motor the difference might be more pronounced.
I think my friend had a Carlson last in his 451, and it rusted at the bottom
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I remember watching a video I think by engine masters in YouTube, and they tested different exhaust situations. They basically did a dyno pull on a pretty sweet v8, then with a sledgehammer proceeded to make some pretty big dents in the headers, to test restrictions, and they basically found no difference. That of course was an na motor, so maybe on a turbo motor the difference might be more pronounced.
I think my friend had a Carlson last in his 451, and it rusted at the bottom
Haha, yes sir I saw that episode a few years ago. That was a pretty good series actually. I haven't looked to see if they are still doing that series lately. Finnegans been busy playing with his jet boat but thats the last I've seen. Anyway, the Smart is a new toy and I always try to talk myself in to playing with my new toys. I'm still arguing with myself on what to do, and not to do...nothing new for me. I'll keep studying and deliberating until I decide to pull out my wallet.
 

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Haha, yes sir I saw that episode a few years ago. That was a pretty good series actually. I haven't looked to see if they are still doing that series lately. Finnegans been busy playing with his jet boat but thats the last I've seen. Anyway, the Smart is a new toy and I always try to talk myself in to playing with my new toys. I'm still arguing with myself on what to do, and not to do...nothing new for me. I'll keep studying and deliberating until I decide to pull out my wallet.
I haven't done much to my 451, but the lowering springs is my favorite one tbh. It really made a big difference that I could feel and enjoy
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I haven't done much to my 451, but the lowering springs is my favorite one tbh. It really made a big difference that I could feel and enjoy
I'd love to do a set of mildly lower springs but I may be stuck driving in snow next season. That's putting me off of lowering springs for the moment. I could just buy another used truck but that hinders my plans to move in the next months. I should be focusing on a nice set of wheels with summer tires. Then install some winter tires on the wheels I have now.
 

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I'd love to do a set of mildly lower springs but I may be stuck driving in snow next season. That's putting me off of lowering springs for the moment. I could just buy another used truck but that hinders my plans to move in the next months. I should be focusing on a nice set of wheels with summer tires. Then install some
Hello all, I'm thinking heavily on putting a Carlsson exhaust and a dekat downpipe on my 2016 Fortwo. While the exhaust is removed I can't imagine not freeing things up with a catless downpipe. My question first is: has anyone here ran a dekat downpipe on a 453? If so what 02 sensor "fix" works reliably without any trouble codes? I assume there are people doing these mods successfully somewhere. I'd also assume the biggest gains in the exhaust region would come from removing the restriction of a cat. Is it even worth it on these cars to install a nice exhaust with a cat still in place...from a performance standpoint that is? Obviously a proper tune would be nice to finish off said mods but I'm unaware if anyone writes custom mod specific ecu tunes for these. I keep seeing the blanket performance tunes and piggyback boxes but have yet to read about any custom tailored tunes for the 453. I'm only inquiring to learn more on these Smarts. I've had my share of modding and running custom tunes from others on other vehicles, but never played with a Smart until now. I'm not expecting miracles or anything. I'm just curious what's out there, what my options are, and what is working for people in these regards?
if you want a performance gain go with one of the add-on tuning boxes for the 453. I don’t know about custom tailored tunes but Smart Madness carries the tuning boxes and another German company called CPA Chiptuning makes them. The Renault motor in the 453 responds very nicely to these add-ons. If I recall correctly, the stock 453 motor in other parts of the world is bumped up all the way from 90 hp to 120 hp from the factory without any internal beefing up or concerns about over stressing the motor. I have the lowest level tuning box from CPA Chiptuning. Been on the car now for 3 years this month. Their claim is about a 15-16 hp gain and a 20 ft lb torque gain. I have not had my car Dyno tested but the performance gain is impressive! Merging onto the Interstate is a breeze. I can only imagine what the 2nd and 3rd state of tune boxes do to performance. I average year-round 40-42 mpg in hilly, curvy territory. On flat land if I drive gently between 40-50 mph I can easily average into the 50s for mpg. Highest I’ve seen is 58 mpg. Those numbers are by the dash readout, not by calculating over several tanks of gas. I have calculated mpg in the past and it comes out basically the same as the display readout.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
So CPA makes the piggy back ecu boxes for Madness? I've been eying them quite a bit but the opinions of them are all across the board. Im all in on getting one if they really do help. In most boosted applications a tuner does quite well from my past experience. That's kind of where I'm at. I was looking to get an ecu tuner, go pedal, exhaust system, and possibly the AutoFlash for the transmission and be done and happy there. Just got stuck wondering about the catalytic converter. I'll look more in to CPA now. Do yoy know how they compare to the Lorinser ecu tuner? Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
if you want a performance gain go with one of the add-on tuning boxes for the 453. I don’t know about custom tailored tunes but Smart Madness carries the tuning boxes and another German company called CPA Chiptuning makes them. The Renault motor in the 453 responds very nicely to these add-ons. If I recall correctly, the stock 453 motor in other parts of the world is bumped up all the way from 90 hp to 120 hp from the factory without any internal beefing up or concerns about over stressing the motor. I have the lowest level tuning box from CPA Chiptuning. Been on the car now for 3 years this month. Their claim is about a 15-16 hp gain and a 20 ft lb torque gain. I have not had my car Dyno tested but the performance gain is impressive! Merging onto the Interstate is a breeze. I can only imagine what the 2nd and 3rd state of tune boxes do to performance. I average year-round 40-42 mpg in hilly, curvy territory. On flat land if I drive gently between 40-50 mph I can easily average into the 50s for mpg. Highest I’ve seen is 58 mpg. Those numbers are by the dash readout, not by calculating over several tanks of gas. I have calculated mpg in the past and it comes out basically the same as the display readout.
So CPA makes the piggy back ecu boxes for Madness? I've been eying them quite a bit but the opinions of them are all across the board. Im all in on getting one if they really do help. In most boosted applications a tuner does quite well from my past experience. That's kind of where I'm at. I was looking to get an ecu tuner, go pedal, exhaust system, and possibly the AutoFlash for the transmission and be done and happy there. Just got stuck wondering about the catalytic converter. I'll look more in to CPA now. Do yoy know how they compare to the Lorinser ecu tuner? Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sorry, I tried to figure out how to delete the response so I could quote.
 

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So CPA makes the piggy back ecu boxes for Madness? I've been eying them quite a bit but the opinions of them are all across the board. Im all in on getting one if they really do help. In most boosted applications a tuner does quite well from my past experience. That's kind of where I'm at. I was looking to get an ecu tuner, go pedal, exhaust system, and possibly the AutoFlash for the transmission and be done and happy there. Just got stuck wondering about the catalytic converter. I'll look more in to CPA now. Do yoy know how they compare to the Lorinser ecu tuner? Thanks
I don’t think the CPA Chiptuner makes the one Smart Madness sells. When I bought mine they were sold in the U.S. by a subsidiary. That company folded and they can only be ordered from Germany directly from CPA as far as I know. Check out CPA’s German website. They make these devices for just about every make auto on the planet. I also have the go pedal Smart Madness sells. Added that a year or more after the tuner box. The go pedal doesn’t add and hp or torque but does cause the motor to respond faster with less pedal pressure. The tuner box definitely adds hp and torque! The 453 motor is so much more sophisticated than the Mitsubishi motor in the 451. It wasn’t until I found info indicating that there weren’t any internal changes to the 453 motor when it was bumped up to 120 hp that I decided to buy a tuner box. When the CPA U.S. partner opened and they had a sale bringing the price below $300 I bought mine. Don’t know how it compares to the Lorinser ecu tuner.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I don’t think the CPA Chiptuner makes the one Smart Madness sells. When I bought mine they were sold in the U.S. by a subsidiary. That company folded and they can only be ordered from Germany directly from CPA as far as I know. Check out CPA’s German website. They make these devices for just about every make auto on the planet. I also have the go pedal Smart Madness sells. Added that a year or more after the tuner box. The go pedal doesn’t add and hp or torque but does cause the motor to respond faster with less pedal pressure. The tuner box definitely adds hp and torque! The 453 motor is so much more sophisticated than the Mitsubishi motor in the 451. It wasn’t until I found info indicating that there weren’t any internal changes to the 453 motor when it was bumped up to 120 hp that I decided to buy a tuner box. When the CPA U.S. partner opened and they had a sale bringing the price below $300 I bought mine. Don’t know how it compares to the Lorinser ecu tuner.
Well I'm on their site right now with their top tier Power Box Nitro tuner and Pedal Box tuner in my cart. Lets see how fast DHL Express is from Germany.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I don’t think the CPA Chiptuner makes the one Smart Madness sells. When I bought mine they were sold in the U.S. by a subsidiary. That company folded and they can only be ordered from Germany directly from CPA as far as I know. Check out CPA’s German website. They make these devices for just about every make auto on the planet. I also have the go pedal Smart Madness sells. Added that a year or more after the tuner box. The go pedal doesn’t add and hp or torque but does cause the motor to respond faster with less pedal pressure. The tuner box definitely adds hp and torque! The 453 motor is so much more sophisticated than the Mitsubishi motor in the 451. It wasn’t until I found info indicating that there weren’t any internal changes to the 453 motor when it was bumped up to 120 hp that I decided to buy a tuner box. When the CPA U.S. partner opened and they had a sale bringing the price below $300 I bought mine. Don’t know how it compares to the Lorinser ecu tuner.
Well that was a quick way to spend $904. That's for their top of the line tuner (Power Box Nitro) and their version of the GoPedal (Pedal Box) tuner. I'll definitely be posting my findings once it gets here and I get them connected. Also have an Android head unit coming in as well, with front and rear 1080i cameras, 4G sim card capable, ADAS, 6gig ram 128gig storage and a supposed 8 core processor. I sure hope this chinese unit is descent. It's their top tier...for whatever thats worth. I'll post all my findings with the stuff if people desire to see them.
 

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...that's the way to go...a piggy back fuel controller...leave the cats alone...the tune already in the box is data logged for the cats in place (Europe market)...
...let us know how that goes...
...my 451 ( BMS turbo) is cat less but it was tuned post removal and with a stock Brabus muffler there was no noticeable sound change...

Jetfuel...good luck ...
 
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