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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Never, ever let 'environmentalist' dictate laws, you end up with wealthy States like California on fire.
I would like to respond to this part of your comment but alas, discussing the atmospheric physics behinds what is causing the ever increasing frequency of fires in California would be regarded (only in the USA) as "political". So instead I have flagged your comment that was an effort to start a such a discusison as "political".

And of course you comment about "battery technology died in the 1960s" is total nonsense and I suspect that you know it.
 

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Ricky, understand this it's something I failed to mention. If the batteries die in the Prius you cannot operate solely on the gas engine for more than a few miles or you run the risk of damage. Purposely design that way of course.
That directly contradicts my research on the Prius from when I was considering buying one and I believe is false.
https://priuschat.com/threads/driving-on-bad-hybrid-battery.195941/ ("I decided to just drive my Prius until the battery totally died and then junk it as it was not worth it for me spending close $4000 for a new battery. I also almost ordered the battery reconditioning kit from seeing the ads here but decided against it. Now it's been almost 10 months and 15k miles later, the car is still driving well with mileage back up to 50+ as I don't have to use the heater anymore. The other day I was at 67 mpg for 75 miles. Not bad.")
There are alternatives to buying a full, brand new pack as well.
The average length of car ownership in America has now risen to 10 years and it's hurting the industry. They all want you in a new car within 5 years.
Of course car manufacturers would prefer people bought cars like they buy cell phones. The average age is well over 11 years now and climbing. That's because the cars are fundamentally better and longer-lived, IMO.
But that doesn't mean hybrid isn't a good idea, because it's truly the one affordable way to get those high gas figures and no need for a wall outlet. And it shine in stop and go traffic, this new crap with the auto shut-off and restart at the light will prove in the end to be just another attempt to kill your car off early to get you into a new one. One of the biggest strains on an engine is when you start it. (thankfully most of the cars with it can be turned off)
Start-stop technology is harder on the starter and battery, but restarting an engine that is up to temperature and has residual oil in all the galleys is nowhere near the same level of wear of starting a cold, oil drained engine. Beyond simple start-stop tech, some of the hybrids have more advanced tech to make the re-starting easier (because it's done more often and done while rolling).

If Toyota's goal was to create tech to cause Priuses (Prii?) to fail more frequently, they did a fairly miserable job of it.
t's a very common platform now for taxi and ride share drivers due to excellent fuel economy and long service life. Prius taxi with over 1 million kilometers.
 

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If you’re going to only have battery operated vehicles you must not go on long vacations
Don't base ALL your EV critique on your smart experience.

CARB state experience with an EV will be totally different than that in a non-CARB state. If you want the ultimate EV experience, Tesla ownership with their 120.0 kW Supercharger charging stations nationwide is the answer!

Think of smart ED as a "purpose build" plug & play appliance with a range of 70 miles subject to use/temperature variables and you will be fine. 4+ years into ED ownership with 40 mile RT requirement most days, no regrets. Road trips beyond range, pull our ICE SUV out of the garage and Life is Good!

While not being accepted as quickly as some may have envisioned, the EV ownership & experience is evolving and the early pioneers could be looked on as Beta Testers . . .
 

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If you’re going to only have battery operated vehicles you must not go on long vacations
It's not a problem with a Tesla and high speed charging nationwide, but I understand that's not everyone's cup of tea - no car is perfect for everyone. In my non-CARB state, I do regular 10 hour roundtrip drives without issue and I love leaving the garage with a 300 mile tankful whenever I need it - no regional recharging needed, only on trips. It is pretty much the most sophisticated fun you can have on four wheels, IMHO. I really enjoyed my smart for similar reasons - fun to drive and efficient.

As far as energy goes, my solar array offsets the annual energy usage of the cars and my all electric house plus some. Price of gas or electricity goes up? Don't care. There really isn't another vehicle where you can practically "make" and control the source of your "fuel".

Even if it's grid powered, EVs are still more efficient and less polluting and get cleaner every year as the grid gets cleaner (coal continues to decline and renewables increase).

And, it's not only Tesla, although they're the only ones with a nationwide fast charging network. I have a friend with a Hyundai Kona EV that drives regionally 150-200 miles EVERY DAY for his job and just charges at home overnight. Talk about saving gas money! He's going solar next so he can reduce/eliminate the electric bill.
 

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If you want the ultimate EV experience, Tesla ownership with their 120.0 kW Supercharger charging stations nationwide is the answer!
After a recent upgrade, they are now charging at 150kW for existing Superchargers and 250kW for the newer V3 Superchargers. 🙂

Same over the air software update also increased the power of the Model 3 by 5% at no cost. Let's see another OEM pull that off...
 

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Unfortunately Tesla has moved to China where the EV market is the biggest in the world with apple nuclear and the coal plants to feed the nuclear plants to charge the EV's. The focus for Tesla in America will resort to what it was originally design to do and that is selling battery back-up systems. The EV thing was just to get a government loan to start the latest and greatest sham.

Stay tuned next year Elon intends to launch a monkey with a bong inside a Tesla to mars.
 

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There are lot easier ways to create a sham than actually designing, producing, and delivering record numbers of the safest (NHTSA), longest range, most efficient, technologically advanced EVs available and are still not beaten on those measures by any OEM 7 years after the Model S debuted, but you're welcome to keep believing that. Agree to strongly disagree. :)

P.S. SpaceX is a sham too. Faked those rocket landings just like the moon landing.
 

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Unfortunately Tesla has moved to China where the EV market is the biggest in the world with apple nuclear and the coal plants to feed the nuclear plants to charge the EV's. The focus for Tesla in America will resort to what it was originally design to do and that is selling battery back-up systems. The EV thing was just to get a government loan to start the latest and greatest sham.

Stay tuned next year Elon intends to launch a monkey with a bong inside a Tesla to mars.
Not to burst your bubble but Tesla is still operating in the USA and will be for the foreseeable future: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/08/teslas-model-3-was-2018s-best-selling-luxury-car-in-us.html

The Model Y is due out next summer, the Tesla pickup and Tesla semi truck are near production, and the new Tesla roadster is on the way. Tesla is about to lose any per vehicle government subsidies and it's OTA updates continue to improve the cars with more power, more range and more features. :)
 

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Tesla is about to lose any per vehicle government subsidies...
A bit more info for others: Tesla's customers are about to lose access to the already reduced federal tax incentive. Customers of other manufacturers will still have access to this tax incentive for a little longer since they haven't hit the 200K vehicle cap. GM customers will lose it next then maybe Nissan. Everyone else is so far behind, the incentive may expire before they hit the vehicle cap.

The Model Y is due out next summer...
Woohoo! Model Y will replace my last ICE.
61980
 

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But seriously a 6% drop in Tesla sales last year doesn't get any better with another round of $50k + cars, trucks and other assorted hoopla.
But seriously, where are you getting that figure and in what context? Tesla has been increasing vehicle production and deliveries every year. 2017 to 2018 almost quadrupled and 2018 to 2019 will nearly double. The best selling EV model in the world this year is the Tesla Model 3 starting under $40K with Autopilot. IMO, it will only be outsold by the Model Y since it's a crossover. They may starve some regions for product in a particular quarter as they start delivering in new regions, but when you only have the capacity to build a few thousand a week in the US for shipment to the US and abroad, you do what you have to do. And, all of this with no paid advertising.

Revenue has been growing and they are cash flow positive here of late, but not always profitable with heavy investments in minor things like nationwide fast charging networks on multiple continents, the largest EV battery plant in the world, and a massive new factory for cars and batteries in Shanghai that is starting trial production this month. You know, small infrastructure stuff like that other small company that didn't turn a profit while it invested in infrastructure and worked out its processes - Amazon.

If you want to talk about the competition, there is always one question: show me the batteries. LG Chem and others are getting wise to their pricing power since all non Tesla OEMs will depend on just 3-4 Asian companies. A competitor wants to build 350K+ long range EVs a year to actually compete with Tesla? Where are they getting EV grade batteries and what will they cost as OEMs bid against each other for batteries made in other countries?

I welcome EV competition, but no one has really been trying. If they were, they would have made similar investments to Tesla and be taking the short term losses if necessary. It requires vision and commitment to make those investments while most CEOs are just worried about the next quarter. VW is the only OEM, and only because of Dieselgate, that has shown any real promise with some specific plans and contracts. They haven't delivered yet, but they at least understand the scale that will be necessary. They also seem to understand that they will need to destroy their ICE business (kill investment into engines, transmissions, etc.) to succeed at EVs, which is the big issue for all legacy OEMs. EDIT: Hyundai/Kia have some great EVs, but they only build a small number, so not really any serious competition. They haven't announced any plans to really ramp production and have delayed products like the Soul EV which is also a great design, but not so great if you can't buy it.

My apologies for the novel.

P.S. I understand that some people don't like Musk. Personally, I don't agree with some of his actions, he's made some poor choices, and he should be held accountable (e.g., the Unsworth case). He has that Silicon Valley ego and he's probably a very demanding boss (although willing to do the same work and hours that he asks from his employees). But, he has a vision and he gets important stuff done. He also invested his personal fortune into SpaceX and Tesla, so he's all in along with all other investors. I don't have to like him as a human being to appreciate what his US companies are doing for their employees and their respective industries. I hear Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos were/are pretty lousy human beings, but they also had visions and got stuff done. They don't have to be on my Christmas card list for me to respect their achievements. You take the good with the bad and I believe (hope) Musk is getting thicker skin and more common sense about the "optics" in certain situations. Now having Larry Ellison (5th richest billionaire in the world) of Oracle fame on the BoD will hopefully help. He was also brash while growing his company, but has mellowed somewhat with age. So, hopefully a good mentor.

P.P.S. Mods: If you want to move these OT posts to a new thread, I wouldn't be opposed. My apologies for going way OT.
 

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Unfortunately Tesla has moved to China where the EV market is the biggest in the world with apple nuclear and the coal plants to feed the nuclear plants to charge the EV's. The focus for Tesla in America will resort to what it was originally design to do and that is selling battery back-up systems. The EV thing was just to get a government loan to start the latest and greatest sham.

Stay tuned next year Elon intends to launch a monkey with a bong inside a Tesla to mars.
Yeah.... a bit late, but WHAT? "Tesla has moved to China"? What, you mean because of Gigafactory 3, which is in China? As opposed to the original Gigafactory that's in Reno, Nevada as well as Gigafactory 2 that's in Buffaly, New York? Dude.... the only opened a factory outside the US, to manufacture cars for outside the US market where certain things... cough*Trump*cough.... probably made it difficult to export them. Tesla isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and I REALLY hope that one will still be affordable by the time i pay my 2016 ForTwo off so i can buy one. The Model 3 is my dream car.
 

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Yeah, never figured out where that dude got his "facts" from. 🤷 Oh well, he's banned and gone now.
 

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I see Tesla’s here, in KC every 2 blocks. Very popular EV. More then any EV, on the streets.
Best looking of the the bunch too.
 

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Tesla "Blade Runner cybertruck" reveal scheduled for Nov 21. Should be unique. Right on schedule with the original film - November 2019.... LOL.

First media reviews of China made Model 3s are very encouraging as well. The Chinese EV market is going to get very interesting.

P.S. In an unnatural phenomenon, SpaceX has now launched and landed the same rocket 4 times as of this morning, deploying another 60 Starlink satellites. In honor of that occasion I share the following YouTube video. Tesla/SpaceX may not pay to advertise, but they sure do get a lot of free advertising.
 

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Yeah, a little more bizarre than I expected. That design will be polarizing. I figure most over 40 and most hard core truck people will hate it. Younger generation and some Asian countries will probably go for the futuristic, different than everything style.

However, the battery and performance specs are amazing for the price. Some of the materials are also quite amazing. Return of the stainless steel body and it's bullet proof?! Actually, the hardness of this body material probably prevents complex stamping shapes leading to the flat, angular styling.

The glass was cool too except for the demo fail. I would suspect the armor glass would be for the windshield not side glass.

Will be interesting to see how it is received overall.
 

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This thing is plain ugly. Supposedly the base model, will come in at $39K. Then there’s a top end version. Tri Motor. With a 500 mile range. The side beds of this truck, is very Impractical. so much for the shatter proof glass demonstrated in the introduction. Both driver, and passenger side glass broke. There aren’t any compound body shapes. To save on body stamp tooling, of the stainless steel Panels.

I prefer this EV truck over the Tesla...

 
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