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I'm thinking the reserve is fuel in the tank when it shows 0.0 gallons. I feel it would suck if as soon as the gauge showed 0.0 the engine cut out.
 

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I'm thinking the reserve is fuel in the tank when it shows 0.0 gallons. I feel it would suck if as soon as the gauge showed 0.0 the engine cut out.
No doubt, that's why when the 451 hits 0.0 gal, you still have a bit left in the tank to get you to a petrol station. But it is generally accepted that once you hit 0.0 gal, that's it, the rest that's in the tank is for the fuel pump.

However what they're suggesting is that once your 453 hits 0.0, you still have another 1.6 gallons plus the fuel pump fuel on top of that. That potentially means that you have more than 2 gallons that isn't being counted by the fuel gauge.

I'm still going to press smart USA over this, because logically "oops we made a mistake with the manuals" doesn't really work out. They'd really have to explain why some of us are able to get 10 gallons while the rest can only get 5.
 

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Well checked the dealer site here in Sacramento and the ones I checked have the fuel tank listed at the 7.7 gallons now.

Would be nice to know if once the gauge says 0.0 if there is still 1.3 gallons of reserve fuel.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

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I found out why my smart has bad wind noise. The driver's door has an even panel gap. The passenger door is so out of alignment that the top of the door has a half inch panel gap while the bottom is 1mm. That explains why the door has a rough closing noise. It looks like the car got into a crash and the body shop botched the repairs.

Meanwhile, filled up Phil. Got 6.2 gallons at 1.2 remaining gallons for a total of 7.4 gallons. :)
 

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The car is definitely new and definitely not in a crash. The insane panel gap should have been fixed during PDI or the visit I made to both St. Charles and Lincolnwood for the whistling. However, given it took me this long to find out myself, I'll give them a break.

Maybe this time they'll fix it instead of telling me "cannot replicate issue". :)

And honestly, I don't really care about the petrol tank issue anymore, what happens, happens! :)
 

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I have a Smart Cab 2017 Prime.

I don't understand the language or details of much of this discussion. So I ask naive questions. Perhaps others will benefit by having these questions answered as well. So thanks, in advance!

I've filled the tank 3 times, each time running the tank to the last 1/8th on the fuel gauge. Each time it fills about 6 gallons, and it gets me a little over 200 miles, depending on city or country driving.

My 451 Trip Computer would track tenths of a gallon once the gauge reached the last 1/8 of a tank. (I assume this last 1/8 is the reserve tank?) I don't see this feature on the current tank. I routinely ran the tank to .1 - .3 gallons before filling on the 451, but can't do so here, which means filling the tank more often.

Questions:

1) Am I missing a feature? Can I track the amount left in reserve (that is in this last 1/8) in the 453?
2) Does the 2017 453 keep 7.7 gallons in the entire tank, including reserve? Is my filling 6 gallons an indication that the reserve holds ~ 1.7 gallons?
3) How do I determine what my tank is holding, how it is divided between main tank and reserve, and how long I can safely drive the car before *needing* to refill?
 

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1) The 451 is 8.7 gallons plus a 1.3 reserve, for a total of 10 gallons. When you do the 1 gallon countdown in a 451, it's counting down to the 1.3 gallon reserve. So when you hit 0.0 gallons, you actually have 1.3 gallons remaining. You aren't supposed to drive on it though, it's there to lubricate the fuel pump.

A 453 is supposed to have 8.7 gallons including a 1.3 gallon reserve. So when your 453 starts doing the 1.3 gallon countdown, you have basically nothing left when you hit 0.0 gallons. Well at least some amount of fuel smart isn't willing to tell you about.

2) A 453 tank is supposed to be 8.7 gallons total, or 7.4 gallons plus 1.3 reserve. Is it actually that? Can't tell you anymore. :(

3) An external gauge will be best, like an Ultragauge or a Scangauge, they can read directly off the sensor. The reserve is a portion of the main tank. In a 451, it was meant for the fuel pump. In a 453, it's a part of the final bar on the fuel gauge. How much fuel you have after 0.0 gallons is unknown.

Hope that helps!
 

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Thanks, Neon! I think we all appreciate your active role on this forum!

I think I understand. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If Smart is accurately describing their product (and some have doubts,) then the top 7/8 on the fuel gauge should be the 7.4 gallon capacity. This last 1/8 is the reserve, and should be 1.3 gallons more. There is no further reserve, and driving after the gauge registers empty should result in the car stalling for lack of fuel.

Unlike the 451, I cannot keep track of the amount in the reserve tank without purchasing an external monitoring device. (BTW, such devices do *not* appeal to me. I want a clean interior, absent devices. For instance, I'm not a fan of automotive GPS, but far prefer it to using an external device mounted to the dash or windshield. I wasn't given a choice this time!)

In particular, the "1.3 countdown" you mention is something I know happens, but I can't observe it explicitly as it happens without using a third party product. I must decide based on intuition and experience when to fill, which will be sometime before this final 1/8th runs dry.

Finally, I don't fully understand the "Gas Tank Fueling Problem" which appears to be mostly a 2016 model issue (I hope.) But I have not filled with much above 6 gallons yet, with the tank at 1/8 or a tad below when I choose to fill. The tank registers full when I finish filling. But 6 gallons is substantially below 7.3!

Only three refills so far. I track gas and service with the iPhone App "Gas Cubby" which I like (probably available in Android,) but I don't pay attention when I actually fill the tank, and I only check later. I suppose the app could have a bug. Is this 6 gallon as opposed to 7.3 gallon issue consistent with what others are calling the "Gas Tank Fueling Problem?" Again, I remind you that after filling the fuel gauge indicates the tank is full.
 

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Thanks, Neon! I think we all appreciate your active role on this forum!
Awe, you're welcome! I uh, think I spent too much time studying these cars...I probably should work for smart one day in Germany. :x

Anyway, here we go!

If Smart is accurately describing their product (and some have doubts,) then the top 7/8 on the fuel gauge should be the 7.4 gallon capacity. This last 1/8 is the reserve, and should be 1.3 gallons more. There is no further reserve, and driving after the gauge registers empty should result in the car stalling for lack of fuel.
Not exactly. From what it seems, all 8 solid bars is the 7.4 gallon capacity. When it starts blinking and counting down from 1.3, that's your reserve. And after your reserve, you shouldn't run out of petrol as there should be remaining fuel in the tank for lubrication and margins of error. However, smart won't tell us that comes after 0.0 gal, so who knows how far one could actually go?

That said: My data is based off the currently printed manual that says the tank is 8.7 total gallons including reserve. If the manuals aren't true, then well I have no idea what size the tank actually is.

In particular, the "1.3 countdown" you mention is something I know happens, but I can't observe it explicitly as it happens without using a third party product. I must decide based on intuition and experience when to fill, which will be sometime before this final 1/8th runs dry.
It's best to fill during the 1.3 gallon countdown. However, because we really don't know the tank's full size (it took a SCoA member removing the 451's tank and measuring it to confirm the tank's full size of 10 gallons), there's no way of knowing when you'll actually run out of fuel.

A third party device might tell you, but if the sensor is calibrated to only read what the fuel gauge sees, then the third party device will be useless. I have yet to test my UG in my 453, it's been off and on parked while I try to convince smart USA to replace my oiled door panel. I think I'll test this week since I'll be driving the 453 while I repair the 451's oil leak.

Finally, I don't fully understand the "Gas Tank Fueling Problem" which appears to be mostly a 2016 model issue (I hope.) But I have not filled with much above 6 gallons yet, with the tank at 1/8 or a tad below when I choose to fill. The tank registers full when I finish filling. But 6 gallons is substantially below 7.3!
So, assuming the manuals and the advertised tank sizes weren't lying, if you fill your tank when the 1.3 gallon countdown hits 0.0 gallons, the tank is supposed to accept 8.7 gallons. Or, if you fill as soon as it begins flashing the 1.3 gallon countdown, 7.4 gallons.

The problem is that when most of us fill our tanks at 0.0 gallons or as soon as the the gauge starts flashing, the tank will only accept 5 to 6 gallons before clicking off (equaling a total of 6.3 to 7.3 gallons). Yet, some other members here are able to fit a grand total of 9 gallons under the exact same circumstances.

There are some other members who when they fill up, not only does the pump click off at only 5 gallons, but the fuel gauge will read under 8 bars and will not accept more fuel. Some other people had/have gauges that read full all the time, even when the car is completely out of fuel.

So the overall question is: "Just how large is the fuel tank? Is it as advertised in the manual, or is it different?"

So, if it truly is an 8.7 gallon total tank, then most 2016 and 2017 smarts are defective as they can't be filled to more than 6 gallons.

If it's a smaller tank, then we need an explanation for how some people are able to put in 9 gallons while some aren't, why the manuals are wrong, and why did the dealers waste a year of everyone's life on something that was simply a manual publishing error.

Occam's Razor would suggest the easier answer to our conundrum is that the tanks in the US built smarts are in fact defective and smart doesn't have a fix for it; so they're just going to re-write the manuals.

Is this 6 gallon as opposed to 7.3 gallon issue consistent with what others are calling the "Gas Tank Fueling Problem?" Again, I remind you that after filling the fuel gauge indicates the tank is full.
Depends, if you're filling up as soon as the 1.3 gallon countdown comes on and you're only getting in 6 gallons, then yep your car is impacted by this issue.

If you're filling as soon as the final two bars turns into 1 bar (no flashing, no 1.3 gallon countdown), I think it would be safe to assume your tank is fine. :)

Then again, I do need to stress that all of this is assuming the data provided in our manuals is correct. If the data in our manuals is wrong or if what smart USA told us about the fuel tank's operation is incorrect, then there's nothing wrong. However, since we're being kept in the dark, there's no true way of knowing for sure (unless someone removes their petrol tank and measures it).
 

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Your letter, Neon, is a great service to me, and probably to many others coming too late to this discussion. Thank you! In your debt!

I have always filled the tank shortly after the gauge finishes the first 7/8. So I'm probably okay.

An important thing I just learned from you is that the gauge will begin to *flash* when it's running on the last few drops. I suppose I should run it down to this flashing point in town one day, partly so I can observe it myself. I'll then have time to drive a short distance to a gas station, and I'll see just how much the tank holds at this point.

I hope someone, someday, does us all a favor and finds out how much is left when it starts blinking, that is, the true capacity of the tank. Perhaps then l'll (gratefully) use the blinking from time to time as an indicator to fill, at least when I'm driving in town. I'll do almost anything to delay filling a gas tank!
 

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Your letter, Neon, is a great service to me, and probably to many others coming too late to this discussion. Thank you! In your debt!


I hope someone, someday, does us all a favor and finds out how much is left when it starts blinking, that is, the true capacity of the tank. Perhaps then l'll (gratefully) use the blinking from time to time as an indicator to fill, at least when I'm driving in town. I'll do almost anything to delay filling a gas tank!
As always, you're welcome! :)

I find the 1.3 gallon countdown to be accurate. The amount of miles I can drive appears to be equal to 1.3 gallons. As for what comes after? Can't say, I've never driven more than a few miles past 0.0.

Anyway, I have some new findings!

I think we need to find someone willing enough to remove their tank and measure its actual size just like LittoDevil did with the 451. What he did was remove the tank and fill it with water. Then he measured the weight of the water. Turned out to be 10.08 gallons.

We know some 453s can only take 5-6 gals, while some 8-9 gals. And some (like mine on its new petrol tank) will take 7 gals.

A dealership has provided us a possible solution, as noted in Post 861 here:

''The tank is NOT SMALLER. It's the reservoir that is bigger than indicated by the owner's manual and instrument cluster due to North American Emissions Spec. North American smart vehicles should have approximately 11 liters reservoir (approximately 2.9 gallons). They went on to say that it is at customers own risk if they choose to try and put this theory to test"
So to boil this down. What this is saying is that yes, the petrol tank is in fact 8.7 gallons. However, our reserve tank is 2.9 gallons, leaving us with only 5.8 gallons of usable fuel.

Our instrument clusters are also apparently wrong, and instead of a 1.3 gallon countdown, they're supposed to have something else.

Alright, so let's try to research these claims. As noted here, I filled up on 6.2 gallons of petrol. Based on the information provided in the instrument cluster, this should mean a theoretical total of 7.4 gallons.

Let's test this out with an UltraGauge.

Now before we do this, how does the UltraGauge work? Well if you enable the fuel sender mode, it'll tell you exactly what the fuel sender sees based on a set value for total petrol tank size.

So, if you set the fuel tank size as 8.7 gallons, it'll count all 8.7 gallons based on what the fuel sender says. In the 451, this means the reserve is not counted unless you set fuel tank size to 10 gallons.

Anyway. Per the manual, the 453's petrol tank is a total of 8.7 gallons. For testing, I will set the UG to 8.7 gallons.

Alrighty, let's do this!



First, control test with my 451 with only two bars remaining:




Looks good, alright, time to move to the 453.




I've only driven 3 miles since getting petrol. Calibrated UG to a full tank being 8.7 gallons, and let's see the result!



Hmmm...Well this is weird. The good news is that this is an accurate amount of fuel for how far I can drive on a tank.

Editing to clarify:

Now looking at the manuals and other evidence. The 451's manual claimed the petrol tank was 8.7 gallons with a 1.3 gallon reserve. There was great debate on this forum of what that actually meant, but it was solved scientifically by removing the tank. 10.08 gallons.

Now for the 453, the manuals say the tank is 8.7 gallons, however it mentions of which the 8.7 gallons is a 1.3 gallon reserve, making the 453 tank smaller than the 451.

We also know that the 451 fuel gauge only counts the 8.7 gallons, not the 1.3 reserve.

I wonder if it's possible that the 453 fuel gauge operates the same way? If so, then the maximum amount of fuel you should be able to fit (filling when you hit 0.0 gal) is only 7.4 gallons...thus making the existing manual misleading?
 

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But that wouldn't make sense... cause in when i still had MY 451, if it was down to saying there was .1 gallons remaining, i could put about 8.5 or so gallons into it without fail. As far as i can remember, the way it is worded in the 453 manual as well as the 451 manual is identical. 8.7 gallon fuel tank with a 1.3 gallon reserve.
 

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They aren't. The 451's manual reads 8.7 gallons with a 1.3 gallon reserve, for a total of 10 gallons.

The 453 manual states 8.7 gallons, of which 1.3 gallons is reserve (the 453 tank is supposed to be smaller). Thus, my theory would make sense if and only if the 1.3 gallons are not counted on the fuel gauge like in the 451. :)

And sadly again, my theories mean pretty much jack without a confirmation from the mothership. :(
 

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I hope someone, someday, does us all a favor and finds out how much is left when it starts blinking, that is, the true capacity of the tank. Perhaps then l'll (gratefully) use the blinking from time to time as an indicator to fill, at least when I'm driving in town. I'll do almost anything to delay filling a gas tank!
A SCoA poster named Suprman drove with 0.0 gallons on the gauge and purposely kept driving until it ran out of gas. Here are the results of Suprman's 453 from Feb 2016: see post number 49 in this different thread http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/forums/f208/2016-gas-gauge-issue-107826/index5.html
 

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An update for me. So, as all of you know, St Charles left a nice oil stain in my door, left my passenger door to whistle, and failed to fix the petrol tank issue.

Anyway, I finally have enough time to tackle these issues again. I'm going to just drop my concerns over the petrol tank, I honestly do not care anymore. However, I do want my doors made right.

I contacted smart USA customer service, and they gave me the most absurd and unhelpful response to a concern that I have ever had. Here were my requests and their answers:
Question: The dealership's tech ruined one of my interior doors with an oil stain. The dealership tried cleaning it, only made it worse. I'm done trying to get it clean, can I just get the panel replaced?

Answer: That'll be up to the dealership.

Question: My car's right door whistles in the wind, it's also visibly crooked. When closed, the panel gap at top is nearly an inch, while the panel gap at the bottom is only a few mm. The dealership keeps saying that they cannot replicate the issue, can I get this fixed?

Answer: That'll be up to the dealership.

Question: So, what am I supposed to do when my dealer doesn't want to help?

Answer: I'd advise you to leave your car with them for several days so they can replicate the wind noise, if they cannot, the door will not be adjusted.
AHHHH!!!! Does anyone know someone I can contact at smart USA who isn't just going to let me get screwed by the dealership?
 

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Might want to post this absurd conversation to their FB page?
Done.

Hiya!!! I'm a long time lover of smart, so much that I have two of them now! A lovely 2012 passion coupe and an even more lively 2016 Edition #1. However, I am having a bit of an issue here:

My Edition #1 whistles in crosswinds, I've also had the petrol tank replaced as well. Now, normally no big deal, but these problems are persisting.

The dealers I took the car to for the whistling issue said they could not replicate the issue, twice. The passenger door is visibly out of alignment, it's so bad there's a bad panel gap and the door slightly misses the latch when closing. I mean sure, it doesn't whistle when it isn't windy, but the poor alignment should have been enough to adjust it. But they won't.

When I was getting my petrol tank replaced, a dealership tech soiled the inside of my driver's door with oil. The dealership "cleaned" it, but it's still dirty, and they scrubbed it so hard that the fabric is fuzzed up. At this point, I just want the fabric replaced, but the dealer insists on just cleaning it.

I called your customer service number today and I didn't make any progress. In fact, I'd say it was the opposite of helpful. I was effectively told that there's nothing I can do and I'm at the whim of my dealer. The car is visibly defective and they damaged my door, they should make it right????

Please help!!! :(
 
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