[svaraman]

I FINALLY got the dealer to give me an actual measurement of the condition of my HV-battery instead of just giving me a PASS/FAIL indication. My battery was measured at 50.9Ah. The initial specified capacity was 52Ah, meaning I've lost 1.1Ah or 2.1% of battery capacity in two years and 14,500 miles of driving.

How does that compare to your experience?

 

[SuperSmartie]

Sadly, you can't learn much from a single number.

It's not really a measurement, just what the BMS thinks the capacity is from it's internal model. The number varies about +/- 1 Ah from one reading to the next. Also, you don't know what the actual capacity was initially. That, too, could be an Ah or two off nominal. So your battery may have degraded a lot more than you think, or not at all.

The only way you can track the aging process is to buyild the odyssey box, read the capacity regularly, and fit the data to get a trend.

 

[svaraman]

@SuperSmartie: The BAP contract is based on the measurement the car makes. As such, it is really the only measurement that matters. If nothing else, having ~5 years of data would help establish a trend. In any case, having ~5 years of a "PASS" test result is of no use.

 

[MB DNA]

Today @ 8,918 miles was year two "B Service" on our leased MY15 ED w/BAP.

Beginning with the baseline capacity of 52 Ah, the current reading came in at 50 Ah a loss of 2 Ah.

Question - would a charge level of less than 100% (79.7%) be of any impact on the capacity reading?

Note, to get a measure of the current HV-battery capacity you need to ask for a printout of the report titled "Check of high-voltage battery (maintenance)."

BAP prepaid all HV battery testing and did include the desiccant cartridge (part was in stock), part and labor.

I did opt to have the brake fluid flush performed at a cost of $90 + $20.

A 451 Pure was provided as a loaner, do find it odd that they aren't using a 453 to tease some of their current/loyal customers? :shrug:

 

[SuperSmartie]

Question - would a charge level of less than 100% (79.7%) be of any impact on the capacity reading?

The charge level at the time of readout has no effect on the number.

The BMS stores a new capacity estimate every time conditions are right. (discharged to < 40%, waited long enough, charged to >90%, waited long enough). The smartcenter just reads out the number from the last time that happened, which could be weeks ago depending on your typical use.
Star (or the odyssey box) will also tell you how many days ago that was, but conveniently it's not printed on the report.

 

[MB DNA]

The BMS stores a new capacity estimate every time conditions are right. (discharged to < 40%, waited long enough, charged to >90%, waited long enough). The smartcenter just reads out the number from the last time that happened, which could be weeks ago depending on your typical use.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts that this "test" is yet another ED "guestimate" and in this case looks back at historical data to the last point that the conditions were "right."

Again raises the question as to why the Euro test wherein they actually force the <40%/>90% is not conducted in the U.S.? Guessing that the Euro test requires more hours be charged to the customer or smart?

 

[Yinzer]

... raises the question as to why the Euro test wherein they actually force the <40%/>90% is not conducted in the U.S.? Guessing that the Euro test requires more hours be charged to the customer or smart?

I can't figure it our either. Mostly I just chalk it up to the general lack of interest - and consequently a DGAS attitude regarding EV's among US car dealers and the people who work there. On my first year service at my local dealer (not the one 230 miles away I had to go to to get an ED), I specifically made sure it was driven to below 30% before charging full a few days before the service date. I don't even bother to ask the service rep. any questions because the answer is most likely to be wrong. Like when I asked about why they don't sell Smart ED's and the guy said that "electric cars won't go up the hills around here".

Oh, and they refused to provide a loaner. Thankfully the dealer in in the city with public transit I could use to get back home.

You are pretty easy on the miles. I'm at a little over 17K miles with the 2 year point still 3 months away. I'm going to be right at 30K at the end of the lease.

 

[MB DNA]

You are pretty easy on the miles.

That's a product of too many cars (2 smarts the other a modded ICE cabrio) - only regret is that ED is not a cabrio but the upgrade was too expensive.

Miles are also light because the public charging opportunities in (non-CARB) NC remain limited and have proven to be not very dependable (occupied or broken). 97% of all charging has been done at home.

After driving ED at the road show tried for two years to get our local dealer to order with no luck. Wanting to be a part of the great EV Beta Test, finally had one built to order and delivered to CA with shipping to NC - sometimes the things we do just make no sense? :shrug:

 

[MB DNA]

I can't figure it our either. Mostly I just chalk it up to the general lack of interest - and consequently a DGAS attitude regarding EV's among US car dealers and the people who work there.

I don't even bother to ask the service rep. any questions because the answer is most likely to be wrong. Like when I asked about why they don't sell Smart ED's and the guy said that "electric cars won't go up the hills around here".

Because inquiring minds want to know, I asked the question - why is the Euro ED battery testing protocol different than the U.S.? "The Technician is not sure what the numbers mean overall but the HV battery tested ok and there is no faults in the system."

To which I said that "number" can be pretty important to your customer who may be renting the HV battery under the BAP program - The response, "without there being any codes, the battery is perfect."

My response - PERFECT - not true, "capacity" (degradation) will never throw a code.

Their response - "we are not sure that our software will allow us to conduct the Euro version of the test but if you bring the car back we will try, ALL at YOUR COST!"

 

[SuperSmartie]

The only thing different about the so-called "euro" test is that they force a new estimate to happen by doing just what the BMS looks for: discharge to <40% internal SOC (<20% on the dashboard gauge to be sure), let it sit for 2h, charge to >90%, let it sit again. No real measurements in old Europe, either.

The US tech would have to do that, too, if your driving style is such that the estimate doesn't happen by itself. If the last estimate is too old, it won't give a capacity on the test report and probably not say "PASS", either.

You can just do the above ritual the day before you go in for the battery check and get the fresh results. No cooperation of the technicians required.

 

[MB DNA]

You can just do the above ritual the day before you go in for the battery check and get the fresh results. No cooperation of the technicians required.

Agreed - just seems odd that (1.) upon scheduling the Annual Maintenance they don't suggest that the owner may wish to establish a current milestone in the BMS and (2.) the highly trained ED Techs no nothing and the Service Writers even less?

smartUSA - the more things change, the more they remain the same...

 

[Yinzer]

"The Technician is not sure what the numbers mean overall but the HV battery tested ok and there is no faults in the system."

The US tech probably didn't even know what an ampere-hour is ...

 

[mwspera]

I had my first battery test today. There were some positive and some negative results. My 2 month experience with this car is that we get around 80-85 miles of range (reset trip odometer after each full charge, add elapsed mileage and estimated range remaining). Although I have not been below 30% SOC yet the range numbers appear consistent.

So I take the car in and say I need the annual battery test done (a.k.a. "Routine maintenance") as specified on the Battery Assurance Plus paperwork. The dealer is a bit confused as they do not sell electrics in our market (South Florida). I tell them they will need the battery dessicant filter to do the test and that I would like it to be ordered in advance so it is in stock when I bring the car in. That would avoid the car sitting there for 2 days while the filter is shipped. They did order and receive the filter. I see they write up the check as "Battery Maintenance Service". It says "performed battery check with sds OK". I look at the service history from the original owner and see the first battery service 2 years ago was written up as "Service, high-voltage battery". The first one appears to be "correct". The one I got could refer to the 12V battery and not the HV battery. But I won't gripe as what was written would likely suffice if I ever have a claim.

I insisted that I get the battery condition report. I brought in the Technical Service Bulletin that and highlited the part that advises them to provide the printed report to the customer. Good news - they give me the 2 page individual cell voltage report. Mildly interesting. Bad news - they don't give me anything stating the total pack capacity. I asked and they said "this is all we have". After I return home they call and ask if everything was OK with the service. I tell them "No, you did not provide me with the report that states the total battery capacity and I think you need to have the tech try to find it". Likely I will never see anything. It also shows the filter being installed. I was charged $70.80 for the filter and $95.95 for installation. Really? It unscrews and the new one screws in - 2 minutes MAX. I also had all 4 tires/wheels balanced. $160.88! YIKES! But down below there is a $70 discount for "A-B Service Discount". So I don't really know what costs what. I told them I did not need any other service (cabin air filter replaced by me and the brake fluid flush is unnecessary for a 3 year old vehicle).

I REALLY wish someone would create the user friendly hardware/software necessary to repair and manage these cars like I had with my Audi (Vag-Com). Yes, I know there are illegal and unreliable Chinese knockoffs of the MB Star system but that is not a "solution" in my mind.

Good Luck,
Mike

 

[SuperSmartie]

To help ease the effects of dealer ignorance, there is this.

 

[MB DNA]

To help ease the effects of dealer ignorance, there is this.

But I signed on to ED to just Plug & Play!

You shouldn't have to be an Astronaut to own/drive a smart ED?

The battery warranty has certain specified requirements for the owner but NONE for the smart Center? Only one printed page (WHICH YOU MUST REQUEST) is required "Check of high-voltage battery (maintenance)" with line #6 reading Ah "Capacity at last measurement."

 

[SuperSmartie]

You shouldn't have to be an Astronaut to own/drive a smart ED?

Yes, MB, we know you don't care. No need to repeat that every time someone new comes to the forum looking for more technical details and I try to help point them in the right way...

Building an arduino OBD adapter and hooking it up to a laptop is the New World equivalent to tuning your own carbs or any other mechanical adjustment back in the old days.

There are those who want to understand and take care of their cars, and those who leave that to the $$$ technicians. To each his own.

 

[NCC1701]

How does that compare to your experience?

My 18650's are only about 2000 mAh. Wow, I could vape for a month with a smart ev battery! Kinda difficult to tote around though.

LiIon batteries do lose capacity over time, charge/discharge cycles. Figure out a way to change that fact and you'll become the next multi-billionaire.

 

[svaraman]

I insisted that I get the battery condition report. I brought in the Technical Service Bulletin that and highlited the part that advises them to provide the printed report to the customer. Good news - they give me the 2 page individual cell voltage report. Mildly interesting. Bad news - they don't give me anything stating the total pack capacity. I asked and they said "this is all we have". After I return home they call and ask if everything was OK with the service. I tell them "No, you did not provide me with the report that states the total battery capacity and I think you need to have the tech try to find it". Likely I will never see anything. It also shows the filter being installed. I was charged $70.80 for the filter and $95.95 for installation. Really? It unscrews and the new one screws in - 2 minutes MAX. I also had all 4 tires/wheels balanced. $160.88! YIKES! But down below there is a $70 discount for "A-B Service Discount". So I don't really know what costs what. I told them I did not need any other service (cabin air filter replaced by me and the brake fluid flush is unnecessary for a 3 year old vehicle).

I got a similar run-around at my first battery service. I was simply unable to get them to give me a piece of paper showing the measured/stated battery capacity in amp-hours. They kept giving me a piece of paper that said "Battery Okay". They too said it was all they had.

At the second check, it took some doing, but I did get the requested report. However, they charged me $295 for the battery service, saying that I don't have "Sale and Care". After weeks of calling MB Financial Services (the manager of the Battery Assurance Plus) and MBUSA I finally got them to agree that the desiccant pack should have been part of the service. They refunded me only $60.48. Using your numbers, I should have been refunded $170.75. I feel cheated.

What Technical Service Bulletin are you referring to? I'd like to have that next time I bring it in.

 

[mwspera]

I got a similar run-around at my first battery service. I was simply unable to get them to give me a piece of paper showing the measured/stated battery capacity in amp-hours. They kept giving me a piece of paper that said "Battery Okay". They too said it was all they had.

At the second check, it took some doing, but I did get the requested report. However, they charged me $295 for the battery service, saying that I don't have "Sale and Care". After weeks of calling MB Financial Services (the manager of the Battery Assurance Plus) and MBUSA I finally got them to agree that the desiccant pack should have been part of the service. They refunded me only $60.48. Using your numbers, I should have been refunded $170.75. I feel cheated.

What Technical Service Bulletin are you referring to? I'd like to have that next time I bring it in.

Here is what I got from AlldataDIY:

Battery - Maintenance or Status Check of High Voltage Battery
Date: May 6, 2014
Order No.: SM-B-54.10/09
Group: 54
SUBJECT: MY-All, Model 451.390/391/490/491
Preparation for Performing Maintenance Service or Status Check of High-Voltage Battery

Here is some text about prepping for the test:
"Drive vehicle (discharge) to < 40 % SOC (see left-hand round "SOC" dial on instrument panel).
^ Leave vehicle parked for approximately 2 hours (no driving, no charging).
^ After this idle period of approximately 2 hours, connect the charging cable, and fully charge the vehicle to 100 % SOC.
^ The vehicle can then be operated normally again."

It also says:
"The test log is to be included with the maintenance documents, and handed over to the customer when requested."

Concerning the cost, it appears this bulletin directs the dealer to charge you for the filter:
"Notes on cost settlement:
^ For maintenance care customers, only the high-voltage battery test as per the applicable guidelines will be covered under warranty and through damage code 0080F."

The above appears to apply specifically to Battery Assurance Plus tests (aka "Sale and Care Warranty" tests) by starting out with the words "For maintenance care customers...".

I called the MB Finance folks (who own and administer BAP as you indicated above) and asked about the filter. I was put on hold while the person polled around and she came back and said "No, only the test is covered". I pointed out that my lease says "Routine Maintenance" is covered and she remained firm that the filter was not covered.

So, some dealers charge for it, some don't. I call and MB Finance says "No", you called and they cover the filter. My guess is that neither are sure (or they are sure and it is not covered) but you made enough noise that they covered it as a Customer Satisfaction issue/case and have a code to write it off. Maybe the dollar amount is small enough that they eventually caved in.

This reinforces my other posts on this forum. We are going through an electric car "experiment". It is new and stilll in its infancy. These manufacturers and owners are finding their way through this trying out different things to see what works and what does not. We don't have the 100+ years of experience dealing with this technology as we have with ICE cars and maybe we should not try to apply that model to electric cars. I believe we have to expect some confusion and go with the changes (or punches). As I said - Somebody has to go first. While all this may annoy some I find it interesting. Then again, I have not faced a potential budget busting situation and most of this stuff is intellectually interesting as opposed to financially life threatening. Also, my "threshold of pain" for this car is high because I REALLY like owning and driving it.

Opinions vary.
Good luck,
Mike

 

[svaraman]

Concerning the cost, it appears this bulletin directs the dealer to charge you for the filter:
"Notes on cost settlement:
^ For maintenance care customers, only the high-voltage battery test as per the applicable guidelines will be covered under warranty and through damage code 0080F.

The desiccant cartridge isn't a filter. If you used the term "filter" when talking to MBUSA, that could be the source of the confusion.

In any case, I agree that opinions vary, but according to the last service advisor I spoke with, since I have "Sale and Care" (which apparently is what they're called Battery Assurance Plus now) the desiccant cartridge is covered as part of the routine battery maintenance. I guess I will find out if they cover it in about 22 months (the next time the desiccant cartridge needs replacing). If they don't cover it, I will just buy it and replace it myself.

I'd say I'm more annoyed by this than you are, but like you, I really enjoy the car and the even with the crazy-expensive routine maintenance it is still an incredibly inexpensive car to drive. Case in point: A friend just spent $1,500 having the timing belt replaced on his Subaru Forester. They told him to expect the head gaskets to require replacement within the next year for a total of $2,500. That's nuts!

I think the BAP agreement is incredibly poorly written. It is the cause of most of the issues. With just a bit of work it could be much clearer. Hopefully, by the time the Model 453 ED arrives they will have the issues worked out in the BAP agreement.