[SailorJohn70]

SaliorJohn, Are you familiar with Evilution | Smart Car Encyclopedia ?? Kane is in the UK and knows more about Smarts than the MB techs in the USA do. His web site is VERY informative with How-To's for every part of the car. He also answers emails to point you in the right direction. Part of the site is free for the reading, the meat of how to do something requires a subscription, which is only $35/yr.

I've followed some links to Evilution and was put off when I couldn't read more than a few sentences with out paying a subscription. I did not realise it was only $35/yr. That seems quite reasonable, for good pertinent information. (I have been VERY put off by MB techs' knowledge and quality! and didn't want to get suckered into a subscription for bad information.)

 

[wcatkins]

Sounds to me like clutch actuator is slightly out of adjustment or failing. When the car was on the ground there was a load on motor. When you lifted the car on Jack stands there was no load and it could turn over easily.

 

[DenisW]

I've followed some links to Evilution and was put off when I couldn't read more than a few sentences with out paying a subscription. I did not realise it was only $35/yr. That seems quite reasonable, for good pertinent information. (I have been VERY put off by MB techs' knowledge and quality! and didn't want to get suckered into a subscription for bad information.)

Kane is a real expert, no bum info or short-cuts from him.He is used by many on this site, he has even helped me get parts that are no longer available in the US. If you find that you are dissatisfied with what he has to offer, I will refund your money.

 

[SailorJohn70]

Sounds to me like clutch actuator is slightly out of adjustment or failing. When the car was on the ground there was a load on motor. When you lifted the car on Jack stands there was no load and it could turn over easily.

Interesting !!!

Wcatkins, I did just do the lube and adjust job on the actuator last week and had problems with it starting as soon as I was done. Did you read any of that post: My Clutch Actuator Adjustment

The actuator is about 1/6 inch (1.5mm) to the left (driver's side) of where it was before I took it off.

"When the car was on the ground there was a load on motor. When you lifted the car on Jack stands there was no load and it could turn over easily."

Just to be clear I put the jack stands under the round pipes (frame tubing) just inside the rear wheels. The car does sometimes start just fine when the weight is on the ground/tires.

I'm thinking it might be worth putting the car back on the stands and seeing if it will start like that again, and maybe re-adjusting the actuator. ... I am a little unclear though how the clutch actuator and the load/weight of the motor with the car on the ground would interact with the starting. (As I'm thinking about it I am supposing [dangerous thing to do] that on a regular manual stick shift to start the car you depress the clutch pedal effectively putting the car in neutral. I ASS-U-ME that this is what the actuator should be doing. It makes sense that if the actuator is out of adjustment the car would not know the gears were in neutral and so it would not allow the starter to turn the crank and start the car. I could also see that maybe when you lift the car and put it on jack stands you redistribute the weight enough that the actuator puts the clutch into the correct position to allow the car to start and then after a certain amount or hardness of driving the weight and position of the actuator/clutch is "just out of position")

 

[SMARTKAR]

The actuator should not have that much movement also if you are lifting by the tubes it still has the weight of the car on it. By the way did you get the starter checked out

 

[wcatkins]

If the clutch is not all the way engaged the engine is connected to trans(and wheels). With the car on stands no weight on wheels and will allow the clutch to engage enough. This could be exaggerated by a week starter. I would take your starter off and have it checked as well.

 

[SailorJohn70]

The actuator should not have that much movement also if you are lifting by the tubes it still has the weight of the car on it. By the way did you get the starter checked out

I don't understand what you mean by the actuator should not have that much movement. The clutch actuator is held on by three screws each in a slot that is about 12 - 19 mm long. The actuator can be positioned with the screws tightened at any point in the slots giving it full movement of the slots.

I did not get the starter checked out because when I tried starting the car with it on jack stands it started quite easily and strongly (there was no hint of hesitation.) I took the car off the stands (while running), and restarted the car 4 different times later that day allowing the car to sit (on the ground not the stands) for varying lengths of time and at one point driving it about 1 mile. Each time it started strongly and quickly with no hesitation. I started the car and drove it 40 miles to work, and at lunch time started it again so I could charge my phone. Again it started strongly and without hesitation, I let the car idle for about 10 minutes while my phone charged. Then 4 hours later the car would NOT start (no attempt to crank) I left the car at work and got a ride home. I tried to start it again (again no attempt to crank) 14 hours later before I loaded it up onto the trailer. The battery is good, there are no codes or other symptoms other than the car will not even try to crank.

I am not able to work on it this weekend but I am planning to put it back up on jack stands next week (probably first thing Monday morning) I will readjust the clutch actuator to attempt to validate that it is in a correct position, I will also pull the starter and have it tested. I do appreciate everyone's input. From all that I've read in the various posts I have researched here is what I am thinking (hoping) the issue is:

When I pulled the clutch actuator to clean and lube it and then reinstalled and had the initial no start I made several uneducated movements of the clutch actuator trying to get the car to start. (The cleaning of the clutch actuator and positioning of it were the only changes made to the car.) It was only after I learned that I should reteach the shifter after having the battery disconnected that the car started (I never went back and validated the position of the clutch actuator.) The clutch actuator is currently about 1.5 mm (to the left) away from the original position, about 4.5mm (to the right) away from where I felt the new readjusted position should be. I had driven the car for a week (about 300 miles) with no issues after cleaning/lubing/adjusting the clutch actuator then this intermittent no crank issue started. Here is my step by step plan:

1.) Test start the car.
2.) Remove the car from the transport trailer it is currently on.
3.) Test start the car again.
4.) Put the car on jack stands
5.) Test start the car again.
6.) Disconnect the battery.
7.) Remove the starter and have it tested.
8.) Replace the starter.
...(If I need a new starter is there any reason not to get the reman Ultima starter from O'Reilly's for $220?)
9.) Adjust the clutch actuator following the clutch actuator positioning procedure.
10.) Reconnect the battery.
11.) Re-teach the shifting (if needed).
12.) Hopefully be done with this issue.
13.) Jump up and down screaming and shouting (or maybe just bang my head on the driveway)

 

[DenisW]

This could be as simple as a weak battery in the Key Fob. The fob signals the the SAM to "turn off" the immobilizer (anti-theft system). This is a guess, but I don't think the fob will communicate with the SAM without a working battery; Others may have more experience here and should chime-in if I am all wet.

 

[jetfuel]

...SAM is really smart...he'll let you know battery status by 9 fast flashing when locking...

Jetfuel...like that guy

 

[SailorJohn70]

...SAM is really smart...he'll let you know battery status by 9 fast flashing when locking...

Jetfuel...like that guy

So does the 9 fast flashing mean a good battery?

 

[jetfuel]

...no...totally opposite ...

Jetfuel...nothing here

 

[SailorJohn70]

...no...totally opposite ...

Jetfuel...nothing here

So based on the GIF above and that I get nine fast flashes when I lock and unlock your saying the battery in my fob is week?

I didn't realize that the flashes indicated fob battery condition,
I'm pretty sure weve had the same nine flashed the entire 5 years we've owned the car.

 

[jetfuel]

…I’m not saying that…the car manufacturer says so… it is in the owners manual…worth a reading

jetfuel…change the battery and pray for a resolution

 

[jwight]

I just got the 9 flashes a couple of days ago. Changed the fob battery and back to three flashes when the car locks. By the book...

 

[SMARTKAR]

So based on the GIF above and that I get nine fast flashes when I lock and unlock your saying the battery in my fob is week?

I didn't realize that the flashes indicated fob battery condition,
I'm pretty sure weve had the same nine flashed the entire 5 years we've owned the car.

What happened when you changed the battery in the fob?

 

[SailorJohn70]

What happened when you changed the battery in the fob?

I have not changed the battery yet. I was going to but when I opened the fob the battery in there was a 2016 all I have around are 2032s. I figured I'd stop and get one on the way home.

 

[SailorJohn70]

I replaced the battery in the key fob.
It took quite a bit to get the key fob to recognize the new battery. The old battery was at 2.96 volts and the new one was at 3.32. I could swap the batteries in an out and the old one would lock/unlock the doors but the new one would not. (Yes, each time I was careful about polarity.) I even measured the thickness of the batteries to make sure the new one was making contact (I put them both in a ziplock so as not to short the poles when I measured them). The new battery is .0005" [.013mm] thicker than the old, so should be making more/harder contact. I read a post that someone had a similar problem and had to press both the lock and unlock simultaneously to get their fob to work after replacing the battery. I went out to do that but tried just the lock by itself and it worked, then the unlock worked. I now get one flash when I unlock and three when I lock.

Unfortunately this has not changed my no crank issue.
So now I'm gonna go take my car off the trailer and start with my list.

 

[jetfuel]

…good luck…

jetfuel…LUK

 

[SailorJohn70]

I Took the car off the trailer. That was a bumpy ride that really jostled things around I tried to start but still got no crank.

I put the car on Jack stands and tried both a reteach and a start. The re-teach did not seem to be needed and I still got no crank trying to start.

I loosened the three bolts on the clutch actuator moved the actuator all the way out (towards the drivers side), then carefully moved it back untill it just contacted the clutch pad/fork, I then moved it in three more adjustment lines and tightened it down. (It is now in the original position from before I took it off to lube/clean it.). I tried another reteach and start and again the reteach did not seem needed and I got no crank when attempting to start the car.

I then disconnected the battery and removed the starter. the bolts were easy enough to get to but the starter was really frozen on and took allot of careful prying. I took the starter to O'Reily's who tested it, and it engaged and spun but they could not tell me the amperage or voltage. I then took it to Advanced Auto Parts and they tested, but could not be bothered to look up the specs or enter correct information into the machine. I was able to take a pic of the test screen read out:

Battery Volts Key-on/Engine-off 15.7​

Battery Volts Energized 16.8​

Amp Draw 31.2​

​

The counter guy (I'm not going to call him a tech) thought it was spinning too slow, but tested multiple times and it was consistent each time.​

​

Does anyone know if those readings above are "in-spec"?

The starter connections are quire corroded here is a pic:

 

[DenisW]

I do not have any specs but certainly the battery & trigger terminals look like they put up a lot of resistance and need help. The way to outside is corroded would leave me to think there might be corrosion on the inside as well, on both units. It is possible there is corrosion behind the nut holding the starter feed. Remember a bench test does not have a load; the current required to run the starter is one thing, but to carry a load is quite a different thing. Can you prop the starter up under the car, connect the wires and see if it turns? Remember it will jerk, so restraining is important. Maybe a helper turning the key while you hold...