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The following Times of London story appeared 22 SEP 07. It was briefly included on the AP Wire Service, but to my knowledge, no U.S. news outlet picked it up (perhaps for
 

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I recall similar arguments - but living in the midwest where there's all sorts of corn farmers, they get shot down very quickly. Especially now that E85 is being sold at almost every gas station around here, and at $0.50 less than regular gas.
 

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It ought to be a lot less than unleaded, about half the cost, because you don't get near the same amount of fuel economy as unleaded.
 

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Dave, the only reason it is that low is heavy subsidies from our government to the tune of 2.3~2.7Billion last year...

Ethanol currently contributes more CO2 to the air to produce, but I think in the future this fact may balance or go the other way

Ethanol costs more to produce. If there were NO government subsidies (tax dollars from all of us who actually pay taxes) market forces would have kept it from ever being tried. I think it interesting that the energy department thinks we will need to continue the subsidy for this more then ten years into the future....

Does it bug anyone else beside me that our government wants to punish big oil for making a profit but in the same breath rewards them with a subsidy? A government that complains about high fuel costs but imposes impossible barriers to increasing refining capacity...

I know, I know....those big, mean, evil, profit thieving oil companies ought to give us all free fuel out of their deep sense of patriotic good will

Did you know that the big oil companies are not currently getting enough production out of the domestic alcohol distillers and are importing raw ethanol from South America? ....Like gasoline, the demand is higher then our domestic distilling capacity...

I doubt too many people are aware that we import refined gasoline also from South America....

Has anyone reading this shoped in grocery store for produce lately?... I don't know about the rest of you, but here in Central Texas some items are 3 and 4 times higher then normal....... Corn, Artichokes, tomatoes, I bought 4 ears of corn for $1.08 per ear, and $3.49 for large artichokes ---each! The grocers say it is drought, and high transportation costs causing this... Hummmm I wonder
 

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Dave, the only reason it is that low is heavy subsidies from our government to the tune of 2.3~2.7Billion last year...

Ethanol currently contributes more CO2 to the air to produce, but I think in the future this fact may balance or go the other way

Ethanol costs more to produce. If there were NO government subsidies (tax dollars from all of us who actually pay taxes) market forces would have kept it from ever being tried. I think it interesting that the energy department thinks we will need to continue the subsidy for this more then ten years into the future....

Does it bug anyone else beside me that our government wants to punish big oil for making a profit but in the same breath rewards them with a subsidy? A government that complains about high fuel costs but imposes impossible barriers to increasing refining capacity...

I know, I know....those big, mean, evil, profit thieving oil companies ought to give us all free fuel out of their deep sense of patriotic good will

Did you know that the big oil companies are not currently getting enough production out of the domestic alcohol distillers and are importing raw ethanol from South America? ....Like gasoline, the demand is higher then our domestic distilling capacity...

I doubt too many people are aware that we import refined gasoline also from South America....

Has anyone reading this shopped in grocery store for produce lately?... I don't know about the rest of you, but here in Central Texas some items are 3 and 4 times higher then normal....... Corn, Artichokes, tomatoes, I bought 4 ears of corn for $1.08 per ear, and $3.49 for large artichokes ---each! The grocers say it is drought, and high transportation costs causing this... Hmmmm I wonder
Well spoken. The thought that Ethanol is going to be our savior is a joke that most don't realize is just being propped up by the government. With the increase of demand for oil by India, China, and any other emerging markets, it guarantees that we'll never see lower prices for oil again. And, with no new refineries being built - and the incredible lead time it would take to build one, there won't be any relief from this for a long time - if ever. And, I'm just guessing that even Bush wouldn't be stupid enough to go to war over oil with China.

Just makes the push for small, efficient vehicles more timely...as timely as we can be here in the US. Europe has been living with these for years, and I've been wishing for them. Finally we're getting them.

Don't we on this forum feel Smarter for jumping on the bandwagon early?
 

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I was simply making a statement that E85 and 10% ethanol aditives in fuel is realy doing nothing to help with the fuel crisis or the emissions of polution.

If you read articles where they have tested vehicles that can run on E85, they all get about 20-35% less mpg on a tank than with 100% petrol. If you are burning more, then one would naturally assume your emmisions are going to go up.
 

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Ah, but Dave...shhhh.... it keeps the enviro wackos pacified that we are at least trying... silly buggers are convinced America could follow the Brazilian model completely and get USA off oil in a big way....

More rational folks can simply observe how many planes take off and land, how many over the road trucks are running 24/7, how much we love to light the night so bright that no one can see the stars unless you drive 250 miles out to the Davis mountains observatory...

America is NEVER going to lower consumption in any measurable or significant way... I don't think it can be done. Sooner or later our government will need to explain how fragile our economy really is.....

If every normal citizen, who has an non transportation job, were to ride a bike, walk, or work from home, the reduction of fuel consumption would barely be noticeable

Until we develop a 24th century transporter, Star Trek style, we are stuck with moving people and goods with internal combustion motors and there are simply too many of them for Hydrogen, electricity, LP gas, or alcohol to ever reduce our oil needs.....

I can chart the last 50 years I have been alive and predict with some degree of accuracy how many air planes, trucks, taxis, and OTR trucks there will be using fossil fuel 10 ~20 years from now...and the ratio is ever increasing....increasing faster then we can offset with placebo band-aids any way....
 

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Ah, but Dave...shhhh.... it keeps the enviro wackos pacified that we are at least trying... silly buggers are convinced America could follow the Brazilian model completely and get USA off oil in a big way....
With the very recent announcement of Brazil's petro-find, I hope they don't backslide.
 

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You bet I do, Rlove! The sad part is there is a very large contingent out there that still doesn't get it and will drive their big Hummer until the day they die because they want to and think they deserve to burn excessive fuel IF THEY WANT TO. The sad part is that they don't realize that their glutonous ways are taking the resource away from others. This is why I really think that ELECTRIC is the way to go ....the whole can of worms goes away then....mileage, alcohol conspiracies, all of it.....just plug it in when necessary. They will come and sooner than we think I believe. I 'm hoping anyway.....but for now....I WANT MY SMARTCAR!!! :)
 

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Biofuels possibly have a good future, it depends on how efficiently they can be produced. Certainly today Ethanol production is not efficient but may lead to future developments that could change that.
I hope biomass becomes the cheap way, there is a lot of that stuff and there is no need to use land for fuel production versus food.
 
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