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Discussion Starter #21
But new york and California have extended the EV drivetrain warranty by law.
But MB because of that little descicant, will deny any warranty if you did not buy new one from them
My point was that it is a 50-state Federal requirement that the battery have an 8-year warranty. But in CARB states (which is supposed to include my state of Pennsylvania) , the required warranty is supposed to be 10 years or 150k miles.

Regarding the dessicant, I would think that that would fall under laws that manufacturers cannot mandate dealer service or manufacturer-only parts to keep a warranty intact. The idea that only MB's silica gel is the only "legit" silica gel is laugable. It's like a tire maker requiring that you use only "their" air for the warranty to be intact.
 

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Can a moderator help us with this? Only a fraction of impacted Smart owners ever see this forum. What is most important is something put on this forum - using the right keywords that people doing a Google search will find. I.e. don't use "bricked" battery, use "battery failure" or something.
So this isn't the first time a SCoA member has called for a class action against smart for some reason or another.

The longtime official stance from Admin and Mods is that this forum doesn't participate in or aid in lawsuits/legal action. That includes using the forum to pool participants for a class action. Feel free to sue smart/MB to your heart's desire, however the forum shouldn't be your platform for said suit. We've had a very bad experience with this in the past (hence the stance) and do not wish to repeat it. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #23 (Edited)
Is someone at least allowed to announce in this forum other means of communication outside of this forum for certain purposes?

Can we use the PM utility for messaging on this matter? Are PM's here confidential?
 

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Very good questions! We sent you a PM. Best plan of action is to contact the Administrator and get their official word on how they think this should be handled. :)
 

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MY08 cabrio MY09 cabrio Brabus MY15 ED
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Got popcorn? Poking that sleeping bear on a Friday night . . .

Has anyone approached this group?

 

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Seems like it’s a good place to start.
Having a car with 20k dead and a $10k price tag time repair just isn’t right.
And only 2 year warranty on the replacement battery.
 

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Sorry to hear that. How did it happen? Had you gotten the 2016 software update?

As far as I know no one haws started a class action against M-B yet so you can lead it or file in small claims court if you prefer.
 

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Sorry to hear that. How did it happen? Had you gotten the 2016 software update?

As far as I know no one haws started a class action against M-B yet so you can lead it or file in small claims court if you prefer.
I left it fully charged but not plugged in at my airplane hangar (I don't like to leave batteries charging when unattended for several days). I did the math and with a Li based battery leak-down rate I should have been safe for months. With the Covid-19 travel restrictions I had to extend this even further but still not an issue given the Li based battery leak-down rate. WELL, unbeknownst to me MB takes it upon themselves to discharge the HV battery is the 12v battery dies. And indeed my 12v battery died.... and the car is now trash.
 

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I am sorry to hear that. The car isn't trash, M-B owes you a replacement battery, but you will likely have to sue them to get it.

The main question is, did you get the 2016 software update for the BMS?

Other important questions - When was the last time the car was serviced and did you ever get a notice that the car needed a software update?
 

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No I never had or knew about a software update unfortunately. Last service was probably 2016 when I bought it used from a dealer.
 

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Do you have a M-B dealer that works on the 451 ED within towing range? If so contact them. If not, contact M-B directly and get them to tell you in writing that they will not replace the battery pack free of charge. Once that is done and they don't miraculously decide to replace it free, you will have to sue them to get it replaced or pay you for lost value if you decide to sell the car. Replacement of the pack is likely more than the loss of value since the EDs lose a lot of value once sold
 

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M-B owes you a replacement battery, but you will likely have to sue them to get it.
DealMeIn, what is your basis for suggesting that after 6 years of use, M-B owes Mcallendar a replacement HV battery for a MY14 ED that’s beyond warranty?

Mcallendar, welcome to SCoA. Sorry that you and your ED have become a “BRICK” statistic.

Don’t believe that anyone has pursued a Class Action suit but likely someone (like you?) with a bricked ED would provide the best “straw man.” Proper legal action could provide relief to The Class of all impacted or potentially impacted 451 ED owners.

Any other approach (Small Claims) could result in a singular payout or poke that sleeping Daimler law staff. With their resources, they would attempt to beat back any payment so as to avoid opening the floodgates to additional claims?
 

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MB DNA,

Two reasons actually

1) It's a design flaw and they offer no other option but to replace the entire pack at $10K

2) It probably still is under warranty since battery packs are required to have longer warranties due to emissions regulations. I know that my Honda Insight pack had an 8 year, 120K mile warranty because of this.

M-B is very likely to lose in any court on this. They may be able to draw it out, but the bad publicity would be far worse than settling quickly and their claims liability is insignificant because the tiny number of Smart EDs that they sold here. The only reason that they haven't done it is as far as I know no one has sued them and as long as they don't get sued, they are likely to continue to do nothing about it
 

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2) It probably still is under warranty since battery packs are required to have longer warranties due to emissions regulations.

M-B is very likely to lose in any court on this.
Not still under warranty as M-B/smart wrote the warranty in a manner that thus far (6+ years later) has shielded them from such “emissions regulations.”

Outside chance that with a lawsuit, smart ED’s purchased in California or a CARB State might be covered but NOT at the dealer level nor without extreme legal pressure.
 

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Good point about the warranty on the battery. We've had discussions about whether it actually is eight years to match the warranty on the emissions system, but no one has pursued that option. I think in CA and some other carb states, the warranty is stated as being eight years. I also think that the warranty on the 453's went to eight years if memory serves. Go for it!

Len
2014 EV Coupe 20,000 miles
2014 EV Cabriolet 18,000 miles
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Good point about the warranty on the battery. We've had discussions about whether it actually is eight years to match the warranty on the emissions system, but no one has pursued that option. I think in CA and some other carb states, the warranty is stated as being eight years. I also think that the warranty on the 453's went to eight years if memory serves. Go for it!
The way they quietly raised the warranty to 8 years on the EQ suggests that they realized they could not win in a legal challenge from either from CARB or the EPA if they continued the 4 year warranty (At least the EPA up until 3 1/2 years ago), or an owner. Someone needs to go for it.
 

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The way they quietly raised the warranty to 8 years on the EQ suggests that they realized they could not win in a legal challenge from either from CARB or the EPA if they continued the 4 year warranty (At least the EPA up until 3 1/2 years ago), or an owner. Someone needs to go for it.
Unfortunately the moving party should be someone who has a bricked 451 that has been told by Daimler/M-B/smart that the original 451 ED "WARRANTY PERIOD: 48 months or 50,000 miles, whichever occurs first" covers the HV battery.

Daimler has apparently declared themselves "exempt" from the extended Zero Emission Vehicle warranty of 8 years/100,000 miles, an apparent industry standard?

ENERGY.GOV said: Fact #913: February 22, 2016 The Most Common Warranty for Plug-In Vehicle Batteries is 8 Years/100,000 Miles

"For model year 2016, there are nine electric vehicles (EVs) and seven plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs) that have battery warranties of 8 years/100,000 miles. Tesla warranties are also for 8 years, but with unlimited miles. Three manufacturers offer 10-year EV battery warranties, one of them with 100,000 miles and the others not specified. The shortest warranty time frames are for PHEVs by Volvo and Porsche, which are 7 years or less. California, however, has a mandated battery warranty period for partial zero emission vehicles (PZEV) sold in the state. Thus, models classified as PZEV sold in California have a 10-year/150,000-mile battery warranty."



And if you look at their chart the MY16 451 ED is listed as "10 year warranty w/miles Not specified."
smart fortwo electric drive10Not specified*

Please note this rather interesting verbiage in the ED Warranty - EXCEPT FOR THE EMISSIONS SYSTEMS WARRANTIES, THIS IS THE ONLY EXPRESS WARRANTY PROVIDED IN CONNECTION WITH THE PURCHASE OF A SMART VEHICLE.

General: The smart electric drive is a Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV). As such, federal or state emission related warranty coverages for these models are not applicable.


So they admit that it is a Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV) but then boldly proclaim that "emission related warranty coverages ... are not applicable."

Note, the 453 ED was a MY17 introduction with a warranty of 4 Years/50,000 Miles & a warranty of 8 Years/62,000 Miles on the High Voltage Battery, Limited.

MY18 453 ED Warranty
 

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No I never had or knew about a software update unfortunately. Last service was probably 2016 when I bought it used from a dealer.
If the last time it was serviced is 2016 then you’re behind on changing your decadent filter, which needs to be replaced every two years. But don’t loose heart just yet. My 12 volt battery died in my ED and I thought it was bricked, but I replaced the dead 12 volt battery and car started working again. I had to take it to the dealer to reset the warning lights that were present after the revival, but they didn’t find anything wrong with it. Seems the ED needs the 12 volt battery to start like a regular gas one does.
 

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EVs and Hybrids as a rule generally run everything off the 12v system and charge the 12v batt with the 'dc-dc' inverter that draws power from the hv battery whenever needed. I'm curious if the ED/EQ powers anything else directly off the hv batt for example the dash % of charge meter or more likely the circuit that runs that gauge.
VR
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