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Everything from changing to unleaded fuel in the 1970s to electronic engine management in the 1980s to variable valve timing in the 1990s to direct injection in the latest engines have improved emissions from a gallon of gasoline before the exhaust reaches the catalytic converter.
I understand all that I'm comparing current cars to each other.
 

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I'm referring to overall emissions in response to your assertion that "...it’s really all about MPG because a gallon of gas burned produces the same amount of pollution...", which I stated and maintain is simply not true

Since then you seem to have cherry-picked CO2.
 

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Discussion Starter #63
The discussion was clearly in reference to vehicle carbon footprint
please reference my initial post. but if you'd like to cherry pick one or more of nasty pollutants, i'd be happy to have further discussion

Usually when worried about carbon footprint, GHG (Green House Gases) are of most concern, in other words energy consumption and associated CO2 emissions. Hybrids partially get their power via batteries, but still need good old gas to get their wheels rolling. (One could even argue that above certain speeds hybrids are equivalent to non-hybrid models). In some sense, it’s really all about MPG because a gallon of gas burned produces the same amount of pollution, and it doesn’t matter which technology burned it, hybrid or hami… So it really becomes the issue of fuel efficiency and how engine handles. The idea is to offset the pollution by getting more mileage bang for each gallon == you go farther on the same amount of pollution.

I'm referring to overall emissions in response to your assertion that "...it’s really all about MPG because a gallon of gas burned produces the same amount of pollution...", which I stated and maintain is simply not true

Since then you seem to have cherry-picked CO2.
 

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I understand all that I'm comparing current cars to each other.
Current cars have varying amounts of technology, for instance the smart does not have direct injection which is the latest technology being used by manufacturers to pass upcoming emissions regulations in the US and EU.

If you're really interested in learning about modern internal combustion engine technology, you'll have to spend some with Google. There's far too much to discuss here, and we've strayed way off topic.
 

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The discussion was clearly in reference to vehicle carbon footprint
please reference my initial post.
No, the discussion was clearly in reference to the smart and whether it should qualify for government incentives.

I brought up emissions in post #26; you quoted post #49, not your initial post.

My position on the original topic is clear, and we've now strayed from it. With that, I'm off to start my holiday weekend.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Enjoy your weekend.
this was fun.


No, the discussion was clearly in reference to the smart and whether it should qualify for government incentives.

I brought up emissions in post #26; you quoted post #49, not your initial post.

My position on the original topic is clear, and we've now strayed from it. With that, I'm off to start my holiday weekend.
 

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I'm sorry that Alan has gone for the weekend. He brought up some interesting points. I wonder why smart doesn't use fuel injection. :confused:

It's also interesting to look at the epa sites. Although mpg doesn't completely correlate with all aspects of clean emissions, the correlation is very high.

Honda Civic Hybrid, for example, has a higher (better) Air Pollution score than the Prius even though the Prius gets better mph. But the Prius still has an excellent Air Pollution rating.
 

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Discussion Starter #68 (Edited)
Hi, Bill:
I don't have enough background in mechanical engineering to understand why exactly direct fuel injection is not implemented on smart gasoline engine, but it is on smart's diesel engine with excellent pollution ratings.

MPG is really something to think about in terms of carbon footprint (GHG emissions score - global warming). It's a common misconception that cleaner cars burn cleaner fuel when it comes to gas. It is true that a wide range of pollutants (e.g. air pollutants - smug, stuff that causes asthma, allergies, etc) is produced and engineering of the car does have a huge impact on various emissions hence very complicated formulas are involved in classifying cars - BUT they also are VERY misleading, especially to an average consumer. When it comes down to environment "green" is not always greener for the planet, but rather for the wallets. Sadly so. That's why hybrids to me are somewhat of a "blood diamond" issue. By today's standards I have no idea what excuse would be to continue funding and reward these anything but environmentally friendly "achievements." Today we should be so much further, doing so much more. However, taking into consideration where we are, dismissing smart as "not green" is statement that is seriously flawed. Just my take on things.

I'm sorry that Alan has gone for the weekend. He brought up some interesting points. I wonder why smart doesn't use fuel injection. :confused:

It's also interesting to look at the epa sites. Although mpg doesn't completely correlate with all aspects of clean emissions, the correlation is very high.

Honda Civic Hybrid, for example, has a higher (better) Air Pollution score than the Prius even though the Prius gets better mph. But the Prius still has an excellent Air Pollution rating.
 

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Hi, Bill:
I don't have enough background in mechanical engineering to understand why exactly direct fuel injection is not implemented on smart gasoline engine, but it is on smart's diesel engine with excellent pollution ratings.

MPG is really something to think about in terms of carbon footprint (GHG emissions score - global warming). It's a common misconception that cleaner cars burn cleaner fuel when it comes to gas. It is true that a wide range of pollutants (e.g. air pollutants - smug, stuff that causes asthma, allergies, etc) is produced and engineering of the car does have a huge impact on various emissions hence very complicated formulas are involved in classifying cars - BUT they also are VERY misleading, especially to an average consumer. When it comes down to environment "green" is not always greener for the planet, but rather for the wallets. Sadly so. That's why hybrids to me are somewhat of a "blood diamond" issue. By today's standards I have no idea what excuse would be to continue funding and reward these anything but environmentally friendly "achievements." Today we should be so much further, doing so much more. However, taking into consideration where we are, dismissing smart as "not green" is statement that is seriously flawed. Just my take on things.
Thanks Sky. You make a lot of sense.

I did find it interesting to see that Ford does not recommend that any of its Hybrids - including SUV's be used for serious towing (over 2000 lbs). That's a real restriction. Toyota doesn't recommends ANY towing use for the Prius. Same for smart - although you can buy after market trailers for towing up to 1000 lbs on the fortwo.

My point is that different uses require different solutions.

The funny thing is that I investigated the SUV towing issue because I have a "green" electric boat. Only 20 feet but it's heavy because it has about 800 pounds of batteries & the trailer itself weighs about 750 lbs. It's not easy being green.
 

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The current ( no pun intended ) level of developement in electric cars is not to the level it needs to be to be called "green". It might RUN cleaner, but if you count the much greater pollutants produced in the manufacture of an electric along with what is outgassing from the batteries as they are charged over their lifespan and factor in the method of producing whatever electricity is used to charge them, ..and then add the problem of their ultimate disposal with all those electrolytes and heavy metals that must be dealt with, you will not in any way be looking at a "green" car
 

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outgassing from the batteries as they are charged over their lifespan and factor in the method of producing whatever electricity is used to charge them, ..and then add the problem of their ultimate disposal with all those electrolytes and heavy metals that must be dealt with, you will not in any way be looking at a "green" car
I may be wrong here but I thought all of the batteries were sealed so how do they outgas when charged? I also thought that they are recycling most of the contents of the batteries when worn out. I agree that if many more electric cars the grid will need some work.
 

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Discussion Starter #73 (Edited)
The current ( no pun intended ) level of developement in electric cars is not to the level it needs to be to be called "green". It might RUN cleaner, but if you count the much greater pollutants produced in the manufacture of an electric along with what is outgassing from the batteries as they are charged over their lifespan and factor in the method of producing whatever electricity is used to charge them, ..and then add the problem of their ultimate disposal with all those electrolytes and heavy metals that must be dealt with, you will not in any way be looking at a "green" car
Citation needed on that one, but the only mining plant in US that produced crude material and magnets utilized in producing NiMH batteries (for hybrids now) was closed as it posed horrendous environmental disaster to the area. The only current mines now are in China with products solely distributed through Chinese and stock-piled Japanese distributors.

Edit: Here's the info on environmental impacts of NiMH battery production http://www.tpub.com/content/altfuels02/2963/29630041.htm

In conclusion, thanks, I'll keep my smart for now.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
hybrid batteries

I was trying to find more recent reports for current hybrid's batteries, but no such luck ): I guess this environmentalist's dirty secret is resting safely in the hands of these guys:


But, please note, that Smart's electric drive due on the market in 2010 (let's hope and pray) utilizes lithium-ion battery, not NiMH. Another good topic for discussion.
 

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I guess my question is why doesn't the gov take into account the fact that this car is made from materials that are recycled and make a new incentive? That and encourage smart to get a factory going to cut back on the footprint? What about incentives on HHO kits?
 

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Discussion Starter #80 (Edited)
I guess my question is why doesn't the gov take into account the fact that this car is made from materials that are recycled and make a new incentive? That and encourage smart to get a factory going to cut back on the footprint? What about incentives on HHO kits?
Most hybrids models use environmentally friendly construction facilities and also use recyclable plastic in the car's body. Here's a feel-good read

EDIT: p.s. Smart still kicks their a** in that aspect too. Without getting into production ins and outs for the mere "less is more" factor.
 
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