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Discussion Starter #1
https://www.smartusa.com/

The 58 mile EPA range is concerning :(

It includes configuration options, trims, pricing, and just about everything else.

It looks really nice though I really hope that given the battery is the same size, that it can still reach the high double digits in city mileage. Wintertime range is going to be extremely concerning to me if I end up considering this generation.
 

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$24k for a Smart that travels 58 miles
$30k for a Bolt that travels 238 miles

We owned a 15 Leaf for two years. Net cost was $21k with a range of roughly 90-100 miles.

This oughta kill off the Smart brand by springtime...
 

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58 miles will not sell in today's world. Especially not when competing against a used ED that is much cheaper, or against cars with four seats that cost marginally more but have double or more times the range. I would think that most people who want this format of a car already have one. There is no improved acceleration performance. This new ED won't open any new market niches for them and the one that it already is in is already sold out.
 

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What's the range of the 451 ED again? :shrug:
I don't think the EPA gives an estimated range, though I've heard the 68 mile number thrown around a lot.

What the EPA does say is that the 451 ED does 122 MPGe city, 93 MPGe highway, and uses 32 kwh per 100 miles. Considering that it has a 17.6 kwh battery pack, that calculates to 55 miles. So maybe the 453 ED is a bit better, maybe 30 kwh/100 miles. That 6% increase in efficiency would result in a calculation of 58 miles.
 

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Car and Driver came up with this for the 451 ED:
A new lithium-ion battery pack is mounted under the floor and provides 17.6 kWh of power and an EPA range of 76 miles in the city cycle.
:)

And this was on the smart USA site at one point:
Shorter charge times. Never-ending fun. The 2017 fortwo Electric Drive improves on its predecessor in almost every way. It boasts an estimated range of 80 miles...
 

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Okay, I was wrong. The EPA does say 68 miles of range for the 451 ED and 58 miles for the 453 ED:

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=35859

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=39192

though efficiency is very marginally better, at 31 kwh per 100 miles versus 32 kwh/100 miles. Of course, this makes no mathematical sense if the range calculation is just a simple division of the battery pack size by the efficiency, i.e., 17.6 kwh battery pack dividied by 32 kwh/100 miles = 57 miles for the 453 ED.

It's hard to imagine how they "correct" for that number when the efficiency number should already take into account the weight and aerodynamic/rolling drag.
 

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Based on what's leaked out about the new Leaf, that looks like the best bang for the buck to me. :)

Somebody needs to do a dollars per miles of range comparison on EVs....
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Based on what's leaked out about the new Leaf, that looks like the best bang for the buck to me. :)

Somebody needs to do a dollars per miles of range comparison on EVs....


$410.34 dollars per mile of range for the base smart, which would put it at next to last place. :(

The next-gen Leaf pricing with the leaked battery size / range estimates would put it right under the $200 mark, coming out a good bit more expensive than the Bolt and both variations of the Tesla Model 3, but ahead of all the previous-generation EVs.

Value-wise I'd put either variant of the Model 3 as the winner here. That $3/mile difference from the Bolt (not to mention $2.5k lower pricing) gives you the only viable nationwide charging network, a significantly sportier car, Tesla's 15 inch touchscreen/infotainment system, a superior warranty (except for Bolt's slightly longer drivetrain only warranty), fast charging standard (not true on Bolt and probably next-gen Leaf), and some powerful standard safety features. The baseline Model 3 is extremely viable compared to the Bolt feature-wise.

Fun fact: if the smart had the same price per mile range as the long range Model 3, it'd cost $8232!

I guess the good news is that if you act quickly on a Leaf or Bolt, you'll still get the full federal discount? All three of those vehicles will likely begin their phase-outs next year.
 

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Ok, I just finished a 58 mile round trip. It was between 95 and 102 degrees throughout. It took me 30 miles before I realized I wasn't in ECO mode. So I switched ECO on at the 30 mile mark. I had 28 miles to return with the gauge displaying 22 miles remaining (!!). Yes, I was nervous and decided to use ECO mode. Should have used it from the start.

When I left, the battery was at 80%. When I returned it was 10%. The instrument gauge on ECO mode displayed 6 miles left. I stopped the car, reached for my camera, and it gauge took the estimated range away ---- just like the prior generation 451 would when the battery was approaching 10% or less territory. Darn. Couldn't snap the picture to prove that after 58 miles of driving, 6 miles were still left. And that's with me beginning the trip with 80% on the battery. I ran the air conditioning the entire time.

I have always preferred to be conservative when it comes to driving and predicting the range of an electric car, but the rating clearly could have easily at least been on par with what the smart 451 EV was. If I began my trip with 100% instead of 80%, I would have ended with 30% after driving 58 miles. The rating certainly took conservative to another level.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Ok, I just finished a 58 mile round trip. It was between 95 and 102 degrees throughout. It took me 30 miles before I realized I wasn't in ECO mode. So I switched ECO on at the 30 mile mark. I had 28 miles to return with the gauge displaying 22 miles remaining (!!). Yes, I was nervous and decided to use ECO mode. Should have used it from the start.

When I left, the battery was at 80%. When I returned it was 10%. The instrument gauge on ECO mode displayed 6 miles left. I stopped the car, reached for my camera, and it gauge took the estimated range away ---- just like the prior generation 451 would when the battery was approaching 10% or less territory. Darn. Couldn't snap the picture to prove that after 58 miles of driving, 6 miles were still left. And that's with me beginning the trip with 80% on the battery. I ran the air conditioning the entire time.

I have always preferred to be conservative when it comes to driving and predicting the range of an electric car, but the rating clearly could have easily at least been on par with what the smart 451 EV was. If I began my trip with 100% instead of 80%, I would have ended with 30% after driving 58 miles. The rating certainly took conservative to another level.


Phew, that's good news.

Just curious, highway, slow city, or fast city driving? That would satisfy me if at highway speeds for sure.
 

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Ok, I just finished a 58 mile round trip.

I didn't notice your mention of freeway versus secondary street driving. Speed kills ED range faster than anything; I can get significantly better than claimed range on secondary streets at sub-50 mph speeds, but not when doing freeway speeds.

Regardless, your test results were nothing to write home about, IMO. Whether it has a range of 58, 68, or even 78 summer miles, it's insufficient to be a contender at a $24K price point. Battery technology is progressing, and a healthy dose of smart EV progress is expected. Coming in "last place" for a so-called premium product with marginal usability is unacceptable.
 

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Phew, that's good news.

Just curious, highway, slow city, or fast city driving? That would satisfy me if at highway speeds for sure.
Mostly speeds between 55 and 70 mph, some stop and go at times in the Claremont area. Because the smart EV has so much torque, I probably averaged about 10 to 30% throttle pressure and I was still satisfied with the acceleration ability, even in ECO mode. EV's are much smoother, more powerful, and the air conditioning units are superior to gasoline engine equivalents. If somebody is looking for a *commuter* car, this is still a home run.

My fear with the 58 mile rating was that it might be difficult to achieve, or not confidence inspiring. I may not be comfortable doing 58 miles with only 80% on the battery, but I know it won't require much effort at least during Summer seasons and as long as those miles aren't primarily uphill. If starting at 100% on the battery, I wouldn't hesitate to travel 58 miles during the day. Even if I were to floor it a few times, sit in the car and snack on food with the a/c running for 20-30 minutes, I wouldn't worry. The rating is definitely conservative in my opinion.
 

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I didn't notice your mention of freeway versus secondary street driving. Speed kills ED range faster than anything; I can get significantly better than claimed range on secondary streets at sub-50 mph speeds, but not when doing freeway speeds.

Regardless, your test results were nothing to write home about, IMO. Whether it has a range of 58, 68, or even 78 summer miles, it's insufficient to be a contender at a $24K price point. Battery technology is progressing, and a healthy dose of smart EV progress is expected. Coming in "last place" for a so-called premium product with marginal usability is unacceptable.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I do respect it. I imagine it is probably on par with most others in the casually observant general public. I can tell you though, that I would only attempt to sell the vehicle to those who have a daily commute of 58 miles or less. I respect the EPA figures, and I have no plans to push beyond those figures to sell a vehicle.

I do have evidence to back up my point. AAA's 2014-2015 "American Driving Survey" reflected an average daily commute of 29.8 miles. These are responses from drivers themselves. Only 21% of drivers who participated in the survey have a commute greater than 50 miles per day. The smart EV should technically handle the daily commute of most drivers, most of the time, regardless of its limitations for the occasional trips. If somebody focuses on their average daily commute and fits within the abilities of the smart EV, it might be a great car for them.
 

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58 miles will not sell in today's world. Especially not when competing against a used ED that is much cheaper, or against cars with four seats that cost marginally more but have double or more times the range. I would think that most people who want this format of a car already have one. There is no improved acceleration performance. This new ED won't open any new market niches for them and the one that it already is in is already sold out.
Agree that at $24K for the ED, the $30K for the Bolt is more attractive. But factor in tax credits, particularly if you are in a favorable state and now you are comparing $13K for the ED to $19K for the Bolt. At that point the pendulum swings, if you are someone who doesn't need the range, doesn't need four seats and doesn't want a used car. The pendulum really swings once the Bolt sells too many cars to qualify for the tax credit.

Will SMART succeed? To early to tell. But clearly they are not aiming for those who need four seats or those who need large range. That is not their target audience in the US. And there are many people in the country who would welcome a second car to use when they don't need four seats or large range or massive trunk, etc., but focus more on the price point while still having some safety. Will they win them over? To early to tell.
 

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The ONLY way for the 453ED to compete is PRICE...
Don’t see that happening till they kill the brand.

It’s a shame that Smart fans (this forum), believe this won’t work in it’s present form.
Does anyone in Smart mgmt know?

Sorry for the negativity. as a previous Leaf owner with money to spend and range anxiety...
 

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Time for a dumb question: What is ECO mode? I just looked through the owner's manual of my 2015 ED, and didn't find anything about modes or switching them. What gives?

You know, I keep getting surprised at the different "options" that some models have: Some have LED screens, armrests, storage compartment covers, and now modes? Really?
 

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$24k for a Smart that travels 58 miles
$30k for a Bolt that travels 238 miles

We owned a 15 Leaf for two years. Net cost was $21k with a range of roughly 90-100 miles.

This oughta kill off the Smart brand by springtime...
Agree that at $24K for the ED, the $30K for the Bolt is more attractive. But factor in tax credits, particularly if you are in a favorable state and now you are comparing $13K for the ED to $19K for the Bolt.

This needs be to a fair comparison:

Bolt is $37.5k base MSRP w/ destination, 30k after fed rebate.
Smart is $24.5k base MSRP w/ destination, $17k after fed rebate.
state rebates further lower the price of both.

Bolt is nearly double the price (but, granted, 4 times the range and 2.5x the seats...)
 

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The ONLY way for the 453ED to compete is PRICE...
Don’t see that happening till they kill the brand.

It’s a shame that Smart fans (this forum), believe this won’t work in it’s present form.
Does anyone in Smart mgmt know?

Sorry for the negativity. as a previous Leaf owner with money to spend and range anxiety...
Of course there are different levels of range anxiety. There are many folks who drive hundreds of miles a day, or who take frequent long trips. For those folks, even the best electric car is not going to work. I knew a fellow in Boston who had a two hour commute each way. Clearly no electric is going to work for him. Not Tesla, Not the Leaf, nothing. ICE cars are currently the only option.

But there are also many folks on the other end of the spectrum. 10 mile or less commutes, or drives to grocery stores, etc. Even the SMART has much more range than they need. No range anxiety with the SMART for those folks.

If you have money to burn, spend it on the car you need. Get a Tesla X. If you have less money, get a Bolt or Leaf. But there are many folks who have even less money. SMART ED makes a good option, provided you don't need to drive much, don't need four seats or massive trunk space, and have an electrical outlet.

Once Bolt, Leaf and others hit that magic sales level in the next year or so, tax credits disappear for them and SMART begins to look a lot more attractive. I am sure SMART management is aware of that.

Each type of electric has its advantages. I like the safety features of SMART, as well as the economics, parking, turning and styling. If you need range, look at other electrics. If you need lots of range, look at ICE.
 
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