[Jmk2020]

Dear folks,
as a lot of you faced this bad topic of bricked HV battery, which on the very end is not a big problem anymore, there are some new knowledge i want share.

First of all if you run in this issue, the HV battery is not released anymore and seems to be bricked, best way to win time is to parallel charge the 12V battery or to disconnect the 12V battery over all.

Funny thing with bad result is based on the continuous load of the 12V by minor leakage currents. This could be a forgotten cabin light, a radio or even a bad old 12V battery.

The bug called also a feature on this cause the 12V battery run out of charge. This happen on the first step independent on the HV battery. The nice feature is, if the voltage reach a lower level of 11,7V the system awake and the central gateway unit in the car tell the hv battery to switch on the contactors to allow to recharge the 12V battery by the DCDC charger automatically.

So a really nice feature, but what happen in case of storage of the car over several days or weeks?
First of all there is NO difference on a old or new 12V battery. If it reach the 11,7V the lost charge is filled up again by the HV system.
A bad battery runs faster out of charge and is faster charged (10-20min), a new good 12V battery will take longer ( up to 45min).
So overall the lost charge by leakage by battery or steady load condition is refueled by the nice feature of the EV control system.

But how this is infuenced by the storage time, normally this would just call more or less often a recharge of the 12V?

Here the common idea is till now, the bad 12V will take all the charge and kill the HV battery. This could be in some case, but there is another feature nobody spoke before in this topic!

The next feature! There is a counter which shall protect the HV battery to be totally discharged in the central gateway unit, which control the command to recharge.
In hybrid cars there is a special ecu for this, in Smart 451 this feature is implemented in the central gateway unit.
So if the car is not switched on in between, the counter will be increased by every single recharge procedure. After a few (4-6 tbc), the 12V battery is no more recharged and the 12V battery is passing the 11,7V without to start the trigger to recharge again.

Next step in the bad story is now the slowly die or discharge of the 12V which cause continuous trigger of functions inside of the BMS of the HV battery, which load the HV stacks and cause a internal discharge just by being always active and never reach the standby state anymore. This kills silent and slowly the HV battery and causes also the bad known P18051C and in more extrem cases the hidden dead of BMS hw and current sensors. A bad experience by investigation over several dozen of BMS on the desk, there is about on 60% addition hw broken.

So be aware just to fix the P18051C, which is really no a big issue any more and even be done without to open the BMS at all, some of the offers provided or even the steady fix before P18051C will only help for about 20-30% of the BMS with issues.
Often you also will be faced with the hidden dead of the current sensor, which cause the next bill and only a few really fix the hw damage inside the BMS.
This seems on first view not necessary but will cause a steady load condition on the stacks and a worse range but also a possible breakdown of the battery again.

People to know how to handle the battery and BMS right are now located all over the continents. So often there is no need to send the BMS for a bad repair over the oceans. Never the less not all talking about really know to doing it right.

If you have or had some issues, i am happy to link you to some guys close to you or also here in Europe which really know about and could help. Even in all western and eastern European countries.
Also the hw parts inside the BMS, the current sensor but also the CSE or other parts of the battery are available if necessary. But please forget to ask about cells. Even i could link you to sources, the transport special over the sea is more or less impossible by safety reasons, but regional no problem.

So if you face the bricked HV battery issue, there are solutions. The 451 ED3 is a beautiful easy EV if you have the necessary knowledge and education.

 

[Yinzer]

I presume that in the event of HW damage in the BMS (60-70% of the time), a replacement BMS is not available. Correct?

 

[Jmk2020]

I presume that in the event of HW damage in the BMS (60-70% of the time), a replacement BMS is not available. Correct?

To be honest, the defect HW of BMS could be repaired. All of the parts are more or less buyable somewhere in the web. Also the powersupply ASIC from Bosch or the other very specific devices. OK Some of them are already discontinued but still somewhere available. And even there are refurbed BMS and CSE but also the current sensors out of damaged batteries available.
For the currentsensor there is also the ukraine source which have the possibility by a special modification to reuse sensors for other OEM brands. Funny to tell there are at least 2 different versions of the original currentsensor in the field. They use different SW versions. Additional for these 2 there is the 3. known to be used in the FIAT 500e. All the others didn't work as these sensor send on other SIDs with different OEM specific structures.

Short HW is not the issue and could be repaired but often the defect is hidden and only the failure codes deleted. Also the special permanent modification against P18051C is gone after a software update.

 

[jzchen]

I'm about to head over to a new member's place to see if I can help her revive her dead smart. Anxious I may forget to bring something I am up but somewhat groggy.

Just dawned on me as I'm about to pack up our '18 Honda Clarity PHEV to head over.

Smart ED battery capacity: 17.6 kW
Honda Clarity PHEV (latest Gen): 17 kW

Hmmm.....

Sent from my REVVL V+ 5G using Tapatalk

 

[Yinzer]

Just dawned on me as I'm about to pack up our '18 Honda Clarity PHEV to head over.
Smart ED battery capacity: 17.6 kW
Honda Clarity PHEV (latest Gen): 17 kW

The EV/PHEV options you have in California is pretty striking compared to here in the rust belt. I never even heard of the Honda Clarity. In western Pennsylvania, the only new EV or PHEV options available are an internet-ordered Tesla, and one lone dealer that keeps a couple Chevy Bolts (before that, Volts) on the lot. Maybe Nissan LEAF's are avaiable, but I haven't seen any in a long time. People in the eastern end of the state can go to NJ or NY for a better selection. The nearest place for me is Maryland near DC. That is where I got my ED.

Needles to say, the only EV we usually see around here is the Tesla Model 3.

 

[jzchen]

We're very close to possibly getting our son a used Mirai. Almost free with $15k hydrogen card. (It helps he has a hydrogen H2O electrolysis station on his school's campus). We just have to verify we can fit his cello into it somehow. (We're definitely spoiled here in Cali)....

I'm very flustered with the dead smart I'm working on for Debra. I wonder if I should pay Autel $124.50 to access the diagnostics function on an ITS600...

Sent from my REVVL V+ 5G using Tapatalk

 

[jzchen]

ITS600 has a long way to go it seems in clearing a lot of the errors...

I guess the next option to consider is the VXDiag MultiDiag extension and HDD. Ugh....

Sent from my REVVL V+ 5G using Tapatalk

 

[bill.kichman]

Ugh, I just joined the unlucky death of HV pack by 12v battery depletion. Manual states it's best to leave the car in 80% state of charge, and that was on my mind when I left the charger plug off, 2 weeks ago thinking that wasn't too long a time. Wrong of course. I am pulling the HV battery now to investigate how badly the cells were pulled down, and will attempt a slow recharge as others have done, I have 2 identical benchtop power supplies to use. Could somebody please update me briefly what I should be looking for when it's apart? A friend with a professional scan tool is dropping by in a couple hours to check for codes. I understand I should disconnect the current sensor when I work inside, but with my luck lately, it's probably toast as well. Am I out of luck?

 

[sokoloff]

Sure hope you can revive it Bill. How old was the 12v battery and also what's the year of your Smart?

Len

 

[Yinzer]

Ugh, I just joined the unlucky death of HV pack by 12v battery depletion. Manual states it's best to leave the car in 80% state of charge, and that was on my mind when I left the charger plug off, 2 weeks ago thinking that wasn't too long a time. Wrong of course. I am pulling the HV battery now to investigate how badly the cells were pulled down, and will attempt a slow recharge as others have done, I have 2 identical benchtop power supplies to use. Could somebody please update me briefly what I should be looking for when it's apart? A friend with a professional scan tool is dropping by in a couple hours to check for codes. I understand I should disconnect the current sensor when I work inside, but with my luck lately, it's probably toast as well. Am I out of luck? Shame of it is, I watched a wrecked 453 battery on Ebay for a month, considered buying it for my new house hybrid solar install, but went with other cells. It's gone now of course. But it's my assumption that a wrecked battery should work in my car?

Don't blame not plugging it in for the bricking. Plugging it in for charging does not seem to keep the 12 volt battery charged. ED's that have been left plugged for charging have also bricked if the 12 volt battery is poor condiiton. The only way to prevent a bricking from a dying 12 volt battery is to keep the 12V battery charged with a maintence charger or disconnect the 12V battery.

 

[bill.kichman]

Well thanks, it makes me feel a little better. I think it's easy to work into a dead 12v battery without knowing, as we aren't starting a car with 300 amps, with its inherent early warning. Apparently mine was near death. Ok, so my mechanic buddy stopped by with his SnapOn tool, and though we were able to read and reset codes for the A/C, the brakes system, and other nonsense ancillary systems, all of them complained that the main CAN bus is down. Plus the main ECU and Battery BMS, etc. were non-communicative. Are we doing something wrong? His scan tool is pretty decent, he uses it for all his work, though he noted that the Smart EV was listed in his tool only for the 2017 and up EVs, not the older models, mine is a 2014. I offered to pay for the upgrade, if it's available to get through this. Thoughts? Tomorrow I will disassemble the pack and charge the cells slowly, see where we are.

 

[bill.kichman]

Sure hope you can revive it Bill. How old was the 12v battery and also what's the year of your Smart?

Len

Same as your son's remember? We bought them the same day in Annapolis....

 

[XDCX]

Shame of it is, I watched a wrecked 453 battery on Ebay for a month, considered buying it for my new house hybrid solar install, but went with other cells. It's gone now of course. But it's my assumption that a wrecked battery should work in my car?

I'm asking because I don't know - will a 453 battery work in a 451? Also, do you remember how much the 453 battery sold for on eBay?

Thanks for any info you can provide and I'll be interested to see your posts after you disassemble your 451 HV battery.

 

[XDCX]

I'm asking because I don't know - will a 453 battery work in a 451? Also, do you remember how much the 453 battery sold for on eBay?

Jmk2020 answered this question in another thread - the HV battery is not the same between the 451 ED and the 453 ED - they cannot be interchanged.

 

[bill.kichman]

An update on my personal bricked battery saga...I disassembled the battery yesterday and removed the current sensor, separated the 3 modules. About 14v across each module. Set up charging on constant current at 200mAh, so far it looks like all cells are recovering. Question: I saw a post in that long bricked battery thread about sending an ELM terminal command, I think he indicated it would write and clear the P18051C error? Maybe I misunderstood, it can't really be that easy? I have that device, and the app, from my dually testing of injector issues. I should try this out once I understand it. Is he saying you can use that command to write data registers in the ECUs?

 

[Jmk2020]

Sorry the P18051C, if present could not cleared by the ELM327 solution in this method. Soon there would be a similar easy solution we working on, but in meantime you need to fix the BMS externally.
By the way 200mA is too high, this could cause a non recoverable damage to some of the cells!! Til 1,0-1,5V you should stay below 100mA after you could increase to 200-300mA up to 2,5V after you could go to several Amps til 3,0V. After you already could use the charger. There you get up to 0,5C easily.

 

[Vincent Rapide]

Wasn't Bill's unfortunate discharge a very recent one, ie batt was empty for only a few days? If so it should be able to recharge even @200ma with any luck. I'm mostly curious especially since cells sometimes look like they have taken a proper charge but after a few days short themselves out due to dendrites.

Also you can avoid passing any charging current thru the Current Sensor by charging each 120v module individually one module at a time. And always us a CC/CV power supply.
--

 

[Jmk2020]

If so it should be able to recharge even @200ma with any luck.
I'm mostly curious especially since cells sometimes look like they have taken a proper charge but after a few days short themselves out due to dendrites.

Sorry as i mentioned already, please don't talk about a fixed charging current for deep discharged cells. It is really not as easy. Also there are batteries, which were deep discharges for several month and others which were just discharged which couldn't recover.
You need to bring them first to take charge than you could increase the current step by step.

Also you can avoid passing any charging current thru the Current Sensor by charging each 120v module individually one module at a time. And always us a CC/CV power supply.

Sorry your statement is not wrong. The damage of the current sensor has nothing to do with the current which is following through it but with the supply voltage. This is the reason you only could disconnect the sensor by pulling the sensor connector or take out the BMS (better way, as hardware defect is the real root cause) or open the internal current path by take away a metal bar between the stacks / battery pack modules.
Also the current sensor could already be hidden dead till you start and disconnect.

The P18051C is oft related to a hardware failure inside of the BMS but just the last days i need to fix BMS without P18051C but the hardware failure inside which has a potential to kill the current sensor.

Ant it is true, several HV batteries could be fixed easily, others need a BMS job, which is not as difficult if you know what to do.
For sure a deep discharged cell always loss capacity. Some of them even more than 10% and are even broken by a short. You need to replace them.
In meantime it was shown that several solutions are proven.

And age is not a limit. Just the last days some youngtimer beyond 60 fixed 2 cars. For sure the need support and some hints but it worked out.

Cells are shown by ColinK.

If somebody is feeling not possible to do the job, the bricked cars are not the end. Now more and more resaler buy this cars for the East Europe market, where they are fixed again.

 

[cornwallav8r]

For some clarification, in recharging the bricked cells I did have an intermediate step of 100mA for all the cells ( I did read your previous warning), I didn't mention that for brevity. I noted they all came back up nicely, none of them lagged too much behind the other in voltage rise, and since my Smart was only dead for probably 2-3 weeks, I am wondering whether there is some lessened damage there, but I guess depleted is depleted. They all took a charge, I think I left them at 115v for each of the 3 packs. As I am an electrical engineer, with a fair amount of electronics repair and circuits design skill, I wouldn't mind attempting the BMS fix with a little outside assistance. I took the cover of the BMS off, and lo and behold, the thing is not potted full with that impossible black polymer, so access to the PCB is excellent. I didn't see any evidence of burned parts, beyond that will have to wait till I have more reference material and info.
Additional pressure to my schedule here, is making room for my just purchased 2016 Tesla Model S that will take its place in the garage later this week

 

[bill.kichman]

For some clarification, in recharging the bricked cells I did have an intermediate step of 100mA for all the cells ( I did read your previous warning), I didn't mention that for brevity. I noted they all came back up nicely, none of them lagged too much behind the other in voltage rise, and since my Smart was only dead for probably 2-3 weeks, I am wondering whether there is some lessened damage there, but I guess depleted is depleted. They all took a charge, I think I left them at 115v for each of the 3 packs. As I am an electrical engineer, with a fair amount of electronics repair and circuits design skill, I wouldn't mind attempting the BMS fix with a little outside assistance. I took the cover of the BMS off, and lo and behold, the thing is not potted full with that impossible black polymer, so access to the PCB is excellent. I didn't see any evidence of burned parts, beyond that will have to wait till I have more reference material and info.
Additional pressure to my schedule here, is making room for my just purchased 2016 Tesla Model S that will take its place in the garage later this week

For clarification, apparently I have generated 2 accounts, cornwallav8r is the other one. I will refrain from using that other one to avoid lost comms.