[Yinzer]

Cool I will check ...I could not find the thing..now I know were it is ...Thanks

I believe that it is the large component in this photo:

 

[sokoloff]

If you aren't reading all of the posts in this forum, you may want to read the last post here and probably the first post in that thread to get the whole story.

https://www.smartcarofamerica.com/forums/f170/unobtainable-hv-battery-152976/index2.html#post1673850

Len
2014 EV Coupe 19,000 miles
2014 EV Cabriolet 14,000 miles

 

[gtwibell]

I'll add my own experiences to the HV battery failure knowledge in hopes it may encourage others to heed 12v battery problems more seriously.

In the UK only 180 451EDs were sold hence a lack of familiarity in the dealer network. I bought ours used in 2016 at three years and 7,000 miles old. Finding one at all was tough. I had to travel far to see and buy a coupe model. It was on a BAP contract.

I was concerned that the dealer had had the car a little while. One of the ad. photos showed 0% SOC. Troubling but it was on sale-or-return and I was itching to drive electric. What could possibly go wrong?

As soon as the car was delivered I built the ED BMSdiag unit and it gave the following (short-form) results which looked all good to my untrained eyes.

Reading data........
-----------------------------------------
Time [hh:mm]: 16:01, ODO : 11803 km
-----------------------------------------
SOC : 99.5 %, realSOC: 96.7 %
HV : 384.4 V, -1.80 A, -0.69 kW
LV : 14.3 V
-----------------------------------------
ENTER command... (? for help)
CMD >>rpt
Reading data....................OK
-----------------------------------------
--- Battery Status Report ---
-----------------------------------------
Time [hh:mm]: 16:01, ODO : 11803 km

Battery Status : OK

Battery Production [Y/M/D]: 2013/7/11
Battery verified [Y/M/D]: 2013/7/11

realSOC : 96.7 %, SOC: 99.5 %
Charged capacity : 50.3 Ah, min. Cell# 15
BMS estimate : 50.9 Ah, value @25degC
Measurement done : 75 day(s) ago
* Watch timer for OCV state, redo test! *
Estimation factor: 0.753, poor!
*** Don't trust and redo measurement! ***

OCV timer : 6056 s, @12.6degC
OCV state : HV ON, can't meas. OCV

DC isolation : 62324 kOhm, OK

Voltage Distribution (dV= 25 mV):
*-------------------------->----[==]----*
4115 01 > [4135; 4135; 4137] < 00 4140
min [p25; median; p75] max
-----------------------------------------

Getting on fine with the car for a few months, then after maybe three or four days of not being used, the 12v battery was flat. Called Smart's warranty line, a tech arrived, left the 12v on charge for an hour, and all went back to normal.

Things continued OK until the following year when - again after a few days not not being used - the 12v was flat again. Figuring the car was now 4.5 years old, it wasn't unusual for a battery to fail so we DIY replaced it. A few more months, a few more days of no use and the 12v was flat again. Only this time, after a 12v charge, we got a 'drive sys. Engine off' error (see photo). This reset itself after a couple of key off/key on attempts and all was fine.

This error came up a few more times after a flat 12v battery, but would always clear when 12v was restored and the key turned a few times.

End of last year the car was due annual maintenance. I had tracked down the flat 12v issues to a phantom ≈4Amp drain, when everything was turned off. So I flagged this to the dealer. Apart from the warnings there'd never been a problem with the HV battery during our ownership, and it was on around 60% SOC when it went in.

Call from the dealer next day with bad news. The diagnosis scan showed both the HV and 12v batteries had failed ('broken' was the technical diagnosis) and they'd also found a 'module fault' (DC-DC converter?).

After 9 months awaiting delivery of a new HV battery, we're finally back on the road with brand new 12v/HV batteries, and the unspecified module replaced, all courtesy of the BAP.

To be fair to the dealer and MB UK they were attentive, courteous and sympathetic throughout, keeping us informed and loaning us various demo MBs and Smarts. And I guess their knowledge of the 451ED has expanded somewhat.

 

[MineCooky]

Why did you not track down where the 4A where going?

I would have gotten an multi meter and checked fuse by fuse.

The ED BMSdiag measurement of the battery looked okay, as far as I can see it. (Why did you not post the full report?)

 

[gtwibell]

Why did you not track down where the 4A where going?

I would have gotten an multi meter and checked fuse by fuse.

The ED BMSdiag measurement of the battery looked okay, as far as I can see it. (Why did you not post the full report?)

45 Years ago I'd think nothing of removing and rebuilding engines, gearboxes and diffs. Now I'm an old git without the eyesight, dexterity or flexibility to do much on a car beyond simple tasks.

Sorry I didn't include the whole log. Just seemed a bit l o o n g to include in the message body. It's here instead: https://pastebin.com/raw/0Hb1hThY

 

[MineCooky]

Interesting. Why is saying you selected 32A for charging? Isn't the ED3 limited to 16A?

Battery is looking very good. I would assume the problem in the 12V-circuit.

 

[Yinzer]

gtwibell,

Thanks for the account of your failure. Odd that this phantom drain was associated with failure of both the 12V and HV packs. It might be cause of the other failures in this thread, although there are differences too.

The big difference was the excellent service attention you got compared to the US - even owners who were on the BAP program.

 

[007bond]

Just as an update to my saga the car is now gone, sold to a fella that plans to repair and use off road. Overall just glad it out of the driveway and I have moved on.

Like Jon time to just give up and move onto other things especially for me as the car can never be on the road no matter what so these is not light at the end of the tunnel anyways.

But really glad to say yet another MB customer lost due to my story about how MB totally screwed me over. Just been telling ppl the truth of how MB totally misled me into this purchase and left me high and dry. My neighbor few doors down MB lease was up and I he decided time to give Porsche a try.

If anyone from MB is reading Das Beste oder Nichts, I actually thank you for giving me nothing it has caused me to purchase a much better car then MB could ever be and we are enjoying our Tesla. I hope you are enjoying nothing also as you lose sales as I tell people how you left me with nothing. Sure only a few sales for now but every avalanche starts with just a single snowflake. So MB keep screwing one customer at a time eventually it will catch up with you.

 

[Jon Renner]

Moving on ...

It's sad that MB has come to this, but I suppose that they've got much bigger problems to deal with. Our Smart cost just a bit over $28K in 2013, and at the time it was an excellent live-by-example thing for my high school students to see in the school's parking lot ... and it was fun to drive as well. Knowing that this investment went to zero in 5 years because of an engineering choice that went without remediation by the manufacturer isn't something that would recommend this company to anyone, and if my students were to learn of how this turned out, I'd feel even worse.

We drive a Highlander Hybrid, and even though this vehicle has way more gadgets, gizmos, and applied technology than the Smart, Toyota takes care of everything the first time. And with a smile. And even our small town independent auto shop has everything necessary to work on this vehicle as well. Perhaps this is true of "real" MB vehicles too, but I'm unlikely to ever give them another opportunity. It's just too bad that they've missed this opportunity to "make things better."

 

[jzchen]

It's sad that MB has come to this, but I suppose that they've got much bigger problems to deal with. Our Smart cost just a bit over $28K in 2013, and at the time it was an excellent live-by-example thing for my high school students to see in the school's parking lot ... and it was fun to drive as well. Knowing that this investment went to zero in 5 years because of an engineering choice that went without remediation by the manufacturer isn't something that would recommend this company to anyone, and if my students were to learn of how this turned out, I'd feel even worse.



We drive a Highlander Hybrid, and even though this vehicle has way more gadgets, gizmos, and applied technology than the Smart, Toyota takes care of everything the first time. And with a smile. And even our small town independent auto shop has everything necessary to work on this vehicle as well. Perhaps this is true of "real" MB vehicles too, but I'm unlikely to ever give them another opportunity. It's just too bad that they've missed this opportunity to "make things better."

I’d seriously consider noting to your students what actually happened to you/your smart. Wouldn’t want them to eventually look for one of their own....

The specialized (official) star machine has an unworldly price tag, unfortunately, which has lead to a market of copycats and of course second hand units. It would have been interesting to see if anyone would be successful with one of these clone units. I’ve actually met up with huronlad while he was on a trip around the US and his unit was quite impressive on what it could access on my gas smart.

 

[Yinzer]

I’d seriously consider noting to your students what actually happened to you/your smart. Wouldn’t want them to eventually look for one of their own....

Well... to be clear, most Smart ED's are doing just fine.

 

[MB DNA]

Might consider sharing with the students that all mechanical conveyances can have design flaws so before any purchase, you may want to search reliability?

As Yinzer suggests - the VAST MAJORITY of smart ED’s continue to perform daily as designed.

ICE or EV, M-B or Tesla have some failure rate and I’d suggest that ED is within the “norm.”

 

[Yinzer]

And have we ever determined if Bruce, Jon's and 007's bricked EDs had the Service Campaign SM-SC-2016060002 (July 2016) software update done to them? We still have a hypothesis out there that the lack of this update might have something to do with it.

 

[VulcanizedCrawler]

if you consider a full charge taking me 63 miles fine. well, that made me buy another ice smart. now they have discontinued ev smarts and before than ice smarts. this is crazy. what they need is a battery that goes further. i hvae invested in a company that is in korea and being brought to america and has revolutionary battery technology. they plan on putting their tech in regular ice cars, rather than created cars like tesla did. makes me think a perfect match for smart:

Excellent - "The T1 electric truck, which is being developed by Saean, is equipped with a nano-lithium battery and has a maximum speed of 150 kilometers per hour. It is heard that it can run 370 kilometers on a single charge. "We are going to develop vehicles that are optimized for transporting logistics in urban areas rather than long-distance routes," a Saean official said.

The electric bus being developed under the name eBus-1 is a 45-seater model. The maximum speed is 130km per hour and can travel 600km on a single charge. It is expected to be highly versatile not only in short distances but also over long distances.

In addition, Saean is moving fast to preoccupy the market by designing various products such as electric SUV, hybrid LPG electric boats and drones."

i invested in this company with stock EMPM, as they are coming to america thru EMPM and will be a reverse merger this month or next. seems from my research a perfect match for smart....as their tech is nano battery in size compared to what exists now. more miles. i know i would have bot a smart ev if they demo test i tried it on went not 63 miles but 300 miles+

 

[jzchen]

Well, what numbers are we talking about here then? The number of ED sales total has been? Then the number of failures have been? Then we can do the math.

Yinzer claims there is a built in design to drain the battery dead. The only EV vehicle to do this? Have B class EDs the same reporting? I really don’t know....

 

[jzchen]

Bottom line is the truth is the truth. Left the car with the HV charger plugged in and somehow it dies if my understanding is correct. Dead, completely dead. Should this happen, as a vehicle owner, I would say an emphatic “NO”. To hide this is, well, unethical in itself, granting that it is the truth of the matter...

 

[Yinzer]

I invested in this company with stock EMPM, as they are coming to america thru EMPM and will be a reverse merger this month or next. seems from my research a perfect match for smart....as their tech is nano battery in size compared to what exists now. more miles. i know i would have bot a smart ev if they demo test i tried it on went not 63 miles but 300 miles+

The ranges you quote are not that remarkable - such ranges are already available in a number of cars on the market (Tesla, GM, Hyundai, Renault.).

As far as the Smart ED I'm sure its range could have been be improved, but it is doubtful that it it can be as good as a Bolt or Tesla becasue there is simply not enough space in its tiny wheelbase to fit a 50-60 KWh battery. The smallest you will see is the Renault Zoe - which does pretty good at 400 km range.

The main problem is that few already-existing EVs are sold in the USA because of a (mostly accurate) perception of lack of interest. I'd love it if Renault would start selling the Zoe in the US.

 

[VulcanizedCrawler]

i failed to mention that the reason i invested in the sstock empm, was that the korean superior battery tech.... that is moving it's hq to nevada....does it with 1/10 the battery size. small. small small. so what tesla and others are doing could be accomplished with 1/10th the size of what they have now, without diminished miles. now, does that sound better. they are also working on superior hydrogen fueling and making a battery and hydrogen hybrid. very impressive company and it is being bot out just for the tech.

 

[Yinzer]

I would not put too much money into this venture if I were you. A claim to have a technology for a lithium-ion battery with a 10-fold improvement in energy density (either mass or volumentric) is reminiscent of the "150 mpg carburetor".

Sure, there will be improvements in the battery technology, but it will be incremental and incrementally slower. The biggest thing we need is a way to lower the cost per KWh. Don't expect to see a Moore's law for lithium batteries - in fact Moore's law is dead even for computer electronics. The laws of physics are a b-----.

And as I wrote earlier, the examples you gave are already being achieved with lithium ion batteries already available. A lot of US cities, and every city in China, are phasing in battery electric transit buses like you described.

 

[VulcanizedCrawler]

not lithium