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not lithium
EMPM - "the Company has initial plans on developing an efficient and cost-effective program to retrofit existing gas-powered automobiles (e.g. internal combustion engine or “ICE”) to become a full “Electric Vehicle” (“EV”) using a DC brushless motor powered by lithium cobalt batteries and other required supporting parts.

The Company believes that there is a market for both retrofitted formally ICE vehicles and unused shell vehicles (Fully Electric) at a lower cost than traditional brands.

The Company’s mission is to remove one gas user at a time and in the process turn them green for life."

https://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2019/09/17/1916752/0/en/EMPIRE-POST-MEDIA-INC-Heading-in-a-New-Direction.html

Unsolicited opinion - don't invest more in this $0.15 Penny Stock (EMPM) than you are willing to lose.

May want to look @ Elio Motors . . .
 

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EMPM - "the Company has initial plans on developing an efficient and cost-effective program to retrofit existing gas-powered automobiles (e.g. internal combustion engine or “ICE”) to become a full “Electric Vehicle” (“EV”) using a DC brushless motor powered by lithium cobalt batteries and other required supporting parts.

The Company believes that there is a market for both retrofitted formally ICE vehicles and unused shell vehicles (Fully Electric) at a lower cost than traditional brands.

The Company’s mission is to remove one gas user at a time and in the process turn them green for life."

Unsolicited opinion - don't invest more in this $0.15 Penny Stock (EMPM) than you are willing to lose.

May want to look @ Elio Motors . . .
im not pushing any stock. and i was most interested in elio for yrs now.
im talking ev, new tech. yes they have been making micro vehicles in asia with lithium and have developed another battery with sodium and other chemicals that take up much less space. that caught my attention and that of tesla. wonder why they moved hq to nevada? they are also making hydrogen much more practical. i bot into the empm for .02 ran it to .33 and now at .15 waiting for merger complete from saean ev motors , who basically bot the whole company, we as empm are 15% of them. due dilligence for anything, including a smart is required....exactly why i bot a smart but ev failed my dd. in a mo or two merger will be complete, rv, and korean shares will mix in and the price will be surprising if my dd is correct. still im intrested in the tech....aas this would seem to have solved what i complained about smart ev, range. they are going into bigger vehicles as pointed out above. caution is always a concern, but, nothing ventured nothing gained. i have a very good return on investment and am telling elio to look at it also. elio has a funding problem....seemingly forever. i did not buy an option on an elio. hurry up and wait
 

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Go to that Facebook page I mentioned above and today there is another post about a bricked HV battery, this one in San Diego.

Len
2014 EV Coupe 19,500 miles
2014 EV Cabriolet 14,500 miles
 

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I assume that you have to join and be accepted by the admins. before you can see any posts? Maybe you copy the text of the posts over here?
 

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You shold be able to access via someone's Facebook account, but here are the posts.

Here you go:

1. Dead 2013 Smart ED here in San Diego. It's been sitting at the Mercedes dealer for two weeks. They say a PE module is in some kind of hibernation and that the battery is in a lock mode and won't talk to anything either. they said that they are contacting Smart for advice. My question is, does any one know of a good repair place that works on these things, prefer here in San Diego, but any one know of a place in Southern CA in general. Thank in advance


2. Big problem with my '15 ED. It just wouldn't start this morning. Any Idea? Could it only be the 12v in fault?

Peter Krämer Turn off and start again after 15 minutes. Has that gone?

Will Aultman It's hard to tell, but it looks like what mine did when the 12v battery went bad. Had to replace the little battery and then get the error cleared by a smart specific diagnostic tool.

Johannes Linder That’s what happened with my dead 12v as well. I jumped it and it started but I had a “Christmas tree” of error lights and warnings.
New battery under warranty and a reset by a MB star computer at dealership and all was well.

Fran Terry Perhaps, I'm not convinced that's the 12v battery as the battery light usually comes on

Bill Hayes Fran Terry my bat light didn't come on but it was not holding charge too well and after replacing it what's a difference it made.

Simon Larivière After sitting the driveway the whole day, the car worked but gave that. My 12v battery is giving me 12.8v so I suspect something else.

Will Aultman They can give inconsistent voltage. Take the battery out and have it load tested by a shop. This is about the time that the batteries are starting to get past their usable lives.

Johannes Linder Simon Larivière if I’m not mistaken, in smart should be close to 14v reading. Could be wrong though.

Wayne Mews The battery may not be 12v on load ... load test the 12v battery to determine if it is good.

Simon Larivière Finally it took a new battery. I had 32 codes stored in the computer. The garage cleared them all. Almost 500$ CAD gone 🙁 but at least it runs like a new now.

Will Aultman When the old battery voltage drops it freaks out the computer and it sees all kinds of problems. Most of them a false errors.

Simon Larivière No doubts. I wouldn't believe that so many "errors" could have happened in a short time.

Bill Hayes Try changing the 12 volt battery under the pax floor. It made a huge difference in how mine reacted.

Len
2014 EV Coupe 19,500 miles
2014 EV Cabriolet 14,500 miles
 

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Hi There. Thanks for the Link.

In Spain we have repaired many Smart Electric 451. Currently we have 6 units with the P18051C problem. We have tried factory resets but it has not worked.

When we have time we are going to try to clone a working BMS unit without the error with a Katag Master machine.

We have had cars with the BMS unit with the p18051C error, and we have recharged the battery and replaced error coded BMS with a working BMS unit. The car worked perfectly.

It is possible to interchange BMS units from other cars.

There are two companies that fix this error. one in Russia https://www.facebook.com/gosmartservice/

And a larger company in Bulgaria which we suspect has probably done some development on these cars and has the software key. https://www.softelectronic.com/

They fix the problem if you send your BMS unit and later they will return them fixed. They also offered to send a hardware connexion to repair multiple units online. That's when we figured its more of a software issue that a hardware issue.

I have no reports on owners using this service. So I cannot recommend. I only know that they provide this service. Prices range from 1400$ to 300$.

If we progress we will share the results in this forum.
Thank you for the info. I posted earlier asking for a link to the Russian company. Now I have it. Thanks again!
 

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So for those of you who have much dug deeper than I have into this issue (P18051C , "HV SYSTEM WORKSHOP" , and HV battery discharged/not charging)- I have a lot of questions...

-Have you tried using a MB STAR C3/C4 multiplexer and Xentry to clear codes in the "N82/2 BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM CONTROL UNIT" (or similar systems)? - I see on a youtube video here that C4 multiplexer can at least view the N82/2 BMS system. Or perhaps a mid/high end Autel scanner? (IF Autel, which model/s specifically can see/clear the BMS system)..

OR is it confirmed that what the Bulgarian & Ukranian companies (mentioned in this thread who you can send your BMS to for a $400-1500 "fix") do is more significant than what can be done with MB STAR?

Personally, I'm in the initial research phase, have yet to pull the hv battery, and I'm debating whether to take it to Meredes before digging in fully (2014-so out of warranty-but never got the 2016050005 UPDATE BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM CONTROL UNIT SOFTWARE safety campaign when it was sold off lease in early 2017, but some records of bi-anual service available). I've read this entire thread, searched extensively online, and have and enough automotive/hv/electrical/engineering experience not to do anything stupid, but still reluctant to drill the rivets until all other avenues are exhausted.

-There is not any way that the pack, external wiring connector/s, contactors or etc could be possibly jumped or bypassed (without drilling any rivets) to:
-measure voltage (for example very helpful if I were evaluating a used/junkyard pack)
-charge externally, whole pack (obviously very low amperage at first) ......

I currently have an adjustable lab power supply that would be appropriate for single cell charging, but would be purchasing at least a couple of chargers; so...what specs would you look for:
-cell by cell,
-module level, or
-(eventually), whole pack,

-Finally, here there is no mention of having to go to a dealer or use STAR to reset anything after swapping in a (good, charged, used) pack to replace a previously bricked BMS pack. Can anyone confirm this? Any way to guess, test or know if a used pack/bms is "good" from a junkyard or other source, presumably aleady pulled or disconnected ?

I will update this thread as I learn more & dig in.. Thanks for ANY input, experiences or advice!
 

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Not sure if anyone has pushed Mercedes to honor an eight year warranty on the battery like the 453's have. There was some discussion awhile ago where there might be a chance or maybe a loophole in the federal emissions warranty that would make the battery warranty on the 451's eight years. If it was me and I was reasonably close to a dealership that still works on Smarts, I'd probably risk a couple of hundred dollar service call with the hope that maybe they would work with you.

In any case good luck and please keep us posted.

Len
2014 EV Coupe 19,500 miles
2014 EV Cabriolet 16,500 miles
 

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There was some discussion awhile ago where there might be a chance or maybe a loophole in the federal emissions warranty that would make the battery warranty on the 451's eight years. If it was me and I was reasonably close to a dealership that still works on Smarts, I'd probably risk a couple of hundred dollar service call with the hope that maybe they would work with you.
SWAG - don't think that the 451 HV has a "snowballs chance" of being covered by the 8 year Federal Emissions Warranty unless the vehicle was purchased/leased in CA (or distantly a CARB state?)? Add to that the reality that MOST smart Centers are gone AND with that their "trained" technicians.

That leaves only some type of legal action (State or Federal?) that may only consume more of your time and money leaving you with a stack of cancelled checks and an ED SLED in your driveway?
 

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I don't disagree with anything you said. Sometimes all it takes is a letter from an attorney for a corporation to just get it off their desk and avoid publicity. Even if only offered a courtesy discount, it may be worth a few inquiries before too many checks are written. There may be an ambulance chaser out there who would like to make a name for him/herself. :)

Len
2014 EV Coupe 19,500 miles
2014 EV Cabriolet 16,500 miles
 

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My battery died at 30K miles, it took 4 dealers to finally get a new battery for free.
Now car has almost ^2k miles and giving errors again, battery health its 95 to 100% but I get the HV workshop error.
And only after the service reminder came up a few times HA HA HA

So I reset my service reminders, I reset crash sensors and all OK, but once in a while I have to unplug neg battery cable then reconnect to reset.
Once I had to do both.

Nice to have my autel scanner, it talks to car 100% reset crash, and any other errors, but my crash sensor error is permanent now so reset drive, it is good for about 5 or 10 restarts then reset again.
It never stops after going FYI.
last reset even said refer to service manual, it even was saying cable connected, after cable was pulled out.

See autel scanner, it can see each battery voltage and all codes and resets each module if code is not perm


Link with screenshots

 

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So for those of you who have much dug deeper than I have into this issue (P18051C , "HV SYSTEM WORKSHOP" , and HV battery discharged/not charging)- I have a lot of questions...

-Have you tried using a MB STAR C3/C4 multiplexer and Xentry to clear codes in the "N82/2 BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM CONTROL UNIT" (or similar systems)? - I see on a youtube video here that C4 multiplexer can at least view the N82/2 BMS system. Or perhaps a mid/high end Autel scanner? (IF Autel, which model/s specifically can see/clear the BMS system)..

OR is it confirmed that what the Bulgarian & Ukranian companies (mentioned in this thread who you can send your BMS to for a $400-1500 "fix") do is more significant than what can be done with MB STAR?

Personally, I'm in the initial research phase, have yet to pull the hv battery, and I'm debating whether to take it to Meredes before digging in fully (2014-so out of warranty-but never got the 2016050005 UPDATE BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM CONTROL UNIT SOFTWARE safety campaign when it was sold off lease in early 2017, but some records of bi-anual service available). I've read this entire thread, searched extensively online, and have and enough automotive/hv/electrical/engineering experience not to do anything stupid, but still reluctant to drill the rivets until all other avenues are exhausted.

-There is not any way that the pack, external wiring connector/s, contactors or etc could be possibly jumped or bypassed (without drilling any rivets) to:
-measure voltage (for example very helpful if I were evaluating a used/junkyard pack)
-charge externally, whole pack (obviously very low amperage at first) ......

I currently have an adjustable lab power supply that would be appropriate for single cell charging, but would be purchasing at least a couple of chargers; so...what specs would you look for:
-cell by cell,
-module level, or
-(eventually), whole pack,

-Finally, here there is no mention of having to go to a dealer or use STAR to reset anything after swapping in a (good, charged, used) pack to replace a previously bricked BMS pack. Can anyone confirm this? Any way to guess, test or know if a used pack/bms is "good" from a junkyard or other source, presumably aleady pulled or disconnected ?

I will update this thread as I learn more & dig in.. Thanks for ANY input, experiences or advice!
Unfortunately, since internal contactors isolate the battery pack voltage inside the battery case, the only way to check the pack voltage of a removed pack is to open the case. So far, the reported experience I've found on the internet with packs from a junkyard is that they are completely dead. This is the source of my hypothesis (and only a hypothesis) that the battery packs brick themselves by design when the 12V syatem goes dead.
 

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Not sure if anyone has pushed Mercedes to honor an eight year warranty on the battery like the 453's have. There was some discussion awhile ago where there might be a chance or maybe a loophole in the federal emissions warranty that would make the battery warranty on the 451's eight years. If it was me and I was reasonably close to a dealership that still works on Smarts, I'd probably risk a couple of hundred dollar service call with the hope that maybe they would work with you.

In any case good luck and please keep us posted.

Len
2014 EV Coupe 19,500 miles
2014 EV Cabriolet 16,500 miles
The proper term is not "loophole" - the federal requirement for an 8-year warranty of ceertain key emisisons equipment (which it would seem from some past ruling precedent inlcuded the traction battery in an EV) is actual law. So the proper term for MB's 4 year warranty in the ED is "scofflaw". But unfortunately, right now, the current administration - partcularly the EPA - is not going to be pursuing such scofflaws very aggrssively. I know, I work for the federal government.
 

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The continuing story of my smart ED.
Love it, use it commute with it for basically free.
It would be a paperweight right now if I did not have a good OBD2 reader.
They are telling me yearly maint is required for the New York state 150,000 mile warranty.
So basically pay them $60 for $7 in descicant cart, and yearly battery health check and maybe sabotage.
So just talked to dealer, it would cost $180 just to tell me what I know already, and then warranty void because of something I have changed but not with their brand.

Kind of like Toyota no engine warranty without toyota oil?

So I guess I just keep hitting reset on my crash sensors, get a few on ebay and in the spring change it, I have seen the one under the seat, it is a standard Mercedes part.

Looking for Crash sensor for inside of the battery, I also saw a can bus error of some type, once car starts, runs great battery at 100% health, car is fast as ever and range is as good as can be expected.

I will prob just hard wire the crash sensor out of the picture. I was able to test the one under the seat way back, the other one is prob same
 

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Picked up a cheap Autel bluetooth HT200 scanner for $50 (walmart version of the Autel AT200) as figured it was worth a shot locally vs waiting for something to ship....Yes it works, can read N82/2 BMS codes and has live data capability (presumably-mine has no BMS live data as contactors are open) and was able to clear some codes in other systems. I can't say for sure if it will be able to clear N82/2 BMS codes once the issues are resolved (cells charged, bms re-flashed, and any other internal battery issues addressed), but for now I'm putting off a MB Star C3/C4 purchase. According to Autel website the "diaglink" (sometimes listed as the "DIY version of MD802") for ~$90 should also be compatible with the 2011-2016 ED, if you're looking for handheld vs bluetooth. These are "single vehicle" (but full system) scanners where you have access to one brand (smart) free, $10-15 per year to add additional brands.

The possible 8 year HV battery warranty in CARB states (my state included) is something I'm definitely willing to pursue especially if there are ANY examples of someone challenging MB about this out there. I did notice they specifically state in the warranty manual "The smart electric drive is a Zero Emissions Vehicle (ZEV). As a result, MBUSA provides no federal or state emission related warranty coverages for these models" It's interesting to note that even the other MB electric vehicle from the same time, 2014 b250e has an 8 year battery warranty.

I've called the local (100 miles away ) authorized smart service dealer a couple of times, and MB customer service with general & specific VIN inquiries, but haven't had much luck

My 2014 car had records for the 2 year desiccant/brake fluid service at MB, (original owner sold car in 2017), no 3 year service (STAR scan of battery, all systems check, etc), and 4 year desiccant service at an independent MB shop with the oem MB part. 4 years would have been up 10/2018.. Worth towing it 100 miles to have MB look, charge me, and I'm guessing tell me I need a $9000 battery? --I'm curious how important the "odd year" service/ battery check might or might not be for pursuing any possible HV battery warranty...
 

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I know it's a little out there (and the systems involved are complex, expensive, and not that well documented) but what about regen "tow charging" in the current condition?

Other EV's like Leaf & Tesla can do it (haven't checked whether or not acknowledged as safe by the manufacturer) at least when in a healthy state. According to the owner's manual it's ok in emergencies to tow the Electric Drive wheels down under 30mph, under 30 miles. I have to disconnect/reconnect the 12v in order to get mine in neutral, but when rolling it around I hear the regen...so it got me thinking. I do have P1D799A "Contactor of the HV battery has been opened due to a release fault" and P0AA400 & P0AA100, "(+) & (-) contactors stuck off" ...so I'd imagine nothing is going into the hv battery, but also I'm sure some others here have a better understanding of the wiring/system than I do at this point... as you can see I'm still looking for any excuse I can find to not pull the HV battery & dig in just yet
 

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-Have you tried using a MB STAR C3/C4 multiplexer and Xentry to clear codes in the "N82/2 BATTERY MANAGEMENT SYSTEM CONTROL UNIT" (or similar systems)? - I see on a youtube video here that C4 multiplexer can at least view the N82/2 BMS system. Or perhaps a mid/high end Autel scanner? (IF Autel, which model/s specifically can see/clear the BMS system)..
Yes, it does not work. The error isn't erasable by software. The BMS needs to be newly flashed.

-There is not any way that the pack, external wiring connector/s, contactors or etc could be possibly jumped or bypassed (without drilling any rivets) to:
-measure voltage (for example very helpful if I were evaluating a used/junkyard pack)
You can check the voltage by using this little tool. It's a DIY tool.

I currently have an adjustable lab power supply that would be appropriate for single cell charging, but would be purchasing at least a couple of chargers; so...what specs would you look for:
-cell by cell,
-module level, or
-(eventually), whole pack,
I would do it by battery module, so you'll need a lab bench power supply, which is capable of doing >110V. Each module has 31 cells and the smart is using the cells between 3,2V and 4,2V. So 31 times 3,2V are 99,2V. Normally the smart is done charging at a battery voltage of 310V, so divided by 3 that's 103,3V per module.
 
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